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"WATCH LIST"
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| (US) 8/08 - National: Criteria for "W... |
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From the Mailbag
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Mailbag
Post Number: 248
Registered: 10-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 12:55 pm: | 
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Subject: Watch Lists for November
USA: What is your criteria for putting a location on the Watch List?
(Submitted by Ellen Brodsky of Broward County, Florida) |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 9358
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 12:56 pm: |
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re: Criteria for Watch List - Glad you asked, Ellen.
Am putting locations on the Watch List when I get reasonably recent specifics demonstrating any of the following:
- Significant obstruction of freedom of information
- Impossible numbers or reconciliations that are significantly off or missing
- This year, anyplace still using ES&S iVotronics. Those machines are so demonstrably corrupt and in most locations, so entirely vendor-dependent that I consider any election using them to be void.
- History of corruption/indictments that include either multiple offices with some influence of oversight of elections (ie commissioners and or sheriffs, depending on local structure), or history of corruption of election official
- History of significant anomaly in results
- History of ignoring election law
- History of election official lying to the public
We expect to be adding hundreds more locations to the Watch Lists as these specifics are documented by Black Box Voting and/or submitted by citizens. But we do need documentation.
Bev Harris |
Tom Courbat
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Leftisbest
Post Number: 91
Registered: 6-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 6:06 pm: |
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I think we qualify in Riverside County, CA on almost all of the criteria. We don't have IVotronics and I don't recall much corruption of election officials (that has been found so by a court of law). Otherwise, we hit all the rest. How do you want info submitted? |
Elizabeth Armstrong
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Mischief97
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 6:27 pm: |
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Chesterfield County, Virginia, ran out of ballots for last November's election. The voters were asked to write their choice on pieces of paper and submit them. The ballots were later determined to be unusable/uncountable. I believe the decision was later overturned, but only after many ballots had been thrown out. I doubt they're going to be ready for this November's turn out.
The polling place in Sandston, Virginia (Sandston Public Library) routinely throws out their ballots after they count them. (I know this because my mother mans the polls.) |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 9359
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 6:39 pm: |
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Tom: Riverside is on the Watch List. And let's touch base on seeing if we can get Jim March over there as earlier discussed.
Elizabeth: You're right! I am familiar with the issues in Chesterfield. I have just placed Chesterfield County, VA on the Watch List -- already had collected some information but blanked out. Absolutely. They had a fiasco and then got huffy about it when people wanted to look closer. |
John C. Ervin
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Muservin
Post Number: 52
Registered: 6-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 5:42 pm: |
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My apologies if I haven't kept current in recent weeks to read of all the current watch lists for my area, but I think it would be very appropriate to put on a watch list our county here, of Orange, California, that "ritzy" enclave south of Los Angeles, since in my recent years here (my family all hails from this area, so I find myself here presently for domestic reasons mostly) I have yet to go by, or in, a poll where something peculiar was NOT happening. Most of this, except for some recent cycles, has been anecdotal, relating to my personal participation in voting, but that's scary enough, when you see so many unusual things just in a passing encounter. Hart InterCivic has had its eSlates (or eSlots, considering the lack of voter confidence, and the frequency of lemons lining up all in a row) here for some years now, and after initially giving out "receipts" with your vote, which of course are absolutely worthless, now, in the most recent cycles, they forbid the poll workers to give you any thing of that kind at all. I also noted what looked much like voter discouragement in Anaheim in 2002, where I worked in a more official capacity of poll watcher. I interviewed the new Registrar of Voters, Neal Kelley, the following election, and he was very accessible until I got past the issue of the eSlates themselves and how aggregate votes were compiled, and their custody, and I was quickly shown the door by Kelley and another co-worker, who had apparently been listening in until that point, and swooped down on me. In every case I've voted by bringing by an absentee ballot, rather than vote on the Hart gizmos, and each time while putting it in the box, I usually have about a half minute of choice words for the poll workers, who have wanted to hear what I had to say, and they have almost always thanked me for the information, all but one time. Not bad, considering how lopsided this area is, demographically and electorally, overall, and not one of the more pro-democracy areas of the country. I've been amazed in recent cycles how many ordinary citizens know some details about voter fraud compared to how FEW poll workers know about it, or at least they are not willing to cop to it. That also is a possibility. In any case, it's clear, as well, that media has apparently approached our issues and efforts in their capacity as a vaccuum. They will cover things, but if we don't keep up a continuous din, they will promptly cover things UP, or they would clearly vaccuum UP the whole issue if we were ever to quiet down. So, "Eternal vigilance," as TJ put it, and all that. Meanwhile, I am somewhat limited in my ability to work in the field, but I hope to make more use of the phone in runups to November, and try to spread the word to contacts in this area and possibly recruit. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 5188
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 6:43 am: |
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Could you please edit to put in some paragraph breaks? It is difficult to read a long, unbroken block of text. It will make it much easier to understand what you have to say. |
Bryan Cowell
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Bryancowell
Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 12:21 pm: |
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Anyone familiar with the fiasco surrounding the State Republican Convention here in Nevada knows that we DESPERATELY need to take back control of the election process from party insiders. It's a crooked mess down here.
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/aug/15/source-rnc-panel-rejects-both-nev-de legations/ |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 9386
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 1:52 pm: |
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Hi, Bryan. I also received a report from Colorado about the Republican Convention, that out of about 2600 people checked in, they counted about 3200 votes. I wish there was a way to get documentation of that, but since the parties consider themselves to be not subject to Freedom of Information laws, the public -- or even convention delegates -- have no way to reconcile the numbers. Thus it becomes a he-said, she-said, which is exactly what we don't want for elections.
That's a fascinating article. To some extent, switching into a discussion of Convention politics is not on track with the original topic here. I may move your post, and mine, to another area if/when a more appropriate topic opens up.
Welcome to Black Box Voting, and thanks for contributing that link. What a brawl. |
Barbara Lightner
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Bean2939
Post Number: 1
Registered: 9-2006
Best of Black Box? 
Votes: 2 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 12:15 pm: |
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There are currently three different requests for state election monitors to come to Carroll County, Arkansas to monitor the fall election. Results of absentee balloting, abuse of poll watchers, and failure to follow the law are at issue. We are not certain of the state's ability/willingness to handle matters, and/or provide election monitors who will assure the voting goes at it should.
We will be having a very contentious local election this fall. National elections will no doubt hang in the balance as well (or the hands of the local Election Commission Chair?)
Rep. Brian King, one of those asking for a monitor, is quoted as saying the results of a past election are "out of the realm of anything reasonable."
In addition, ten complaints were filed with the state election commission but we have not heard the results yet. Most of these were related to abuse of the law on poll watchers. Their defense so far as we know at the present is that (1) vote tampering was not alleged; and (2) if the poll captain complained of had known there would be poll watchers, she would have set up for them as the law requires.
Since poll watchers were not allowed to stand within hearing/seeing distance of voter check-in tables, we could not determine if there was vote tampering.
Since we were not allowed in when absentee ballots were counted, we could not determine if there was vote tampering.
The failure to be notified of poll watchers meaningless. This same poll captain ordered poll watchers to stand where they could not see or hear in a previous polling place where there was plenty of room for the watchers to stand where they could see and hear-- as required by AR law.
The poll captain against whom the complaints were filed has continued to harass the poll watchers on a local bulletin board, at City Council meetings, and personally around town. She is one of the Mayor's team so she is allowed to speak as she will at Council.
Her latest attempt was to file a physical assault complaint against one of the poll watchers. The complaint is without substance but is supported by the poll captain's hand-picked poll workers, some of whom are from out of town-- illegal in this particular situation.
All three of the local election commissioners say the process is fine. The Republican (minority) member wants to know why the questions weren't brought up earlier so they could be acted upon.
The questions were brought up earlier and dismissed by the Chair of the local election commission.
Doggone! I hate to sound so back-woods-like-Arkansas Arkansas. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 2768
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 12:48 pm: |
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Say what?!?!? Another area where the mantra that "all election irregularities favor Republicans" isn't true?
How can this be? Does karen reineke know about this???!!! I suspect this poster must be lying. Everyone knows all electoral crooks are Republicans, right?
[For those new, this is rampant sarcasm.]
The ONLY reason that anyone can even write anything like "all election irregularities favor Republicans" without giggling is because they are partisans, not election integrity people.
==========================================
http://kurtspeak.blogspot.com
(some relevant to subjects here, most not)
|
Tom Courbat
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Leftisbest
Post Number: 94
Registered: 6-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 1:56 pm: |
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Barbara and Kurt,
Thank you Barbara for sharing your experineces. You really have a situation there with a member of the Mayor's staff having full reign to spread lies at will. The refusal to allow meaningful observation is far too typical throughout the U.S. I think you qualify for the watch list.
Kurt - you DO know that the VAST VAST majority of election fraud goes in the direction of putting Repubs in office - right? |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 2771
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 2:05 pm: |
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Tom,
I know no such thing.
What I know is this - where Democrats control the process, the corruption and fraud benefits Democrats. Where Republicans do, it benefits the Republicans.
If all you look at are places where Republicans are in control, I can understand why you believe what you do.
If in 2004, you looked at Ohio but not Pennsylvania, you got half the picture.
==========================================
http://kurtspeak.blogspot.com
(some relevant to subjects here, most not)
|
Tom Courbat
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Leftisbest
Post Number: 95
Registered: 6-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 2:46 pm: |
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Kurt,
One looks first where the most damage can be done. In 2004, that was Ohio. Richard Hayes Phillips, author of Witness to a Crime, A Citizens' Audit of an American Election spent three+ years of intense examination of what occurred in Ohio and leaves no doubt that the Republicans stole the presidency of the U.S.
Do Dems play dirty at times? Of course they do. Do they cheat now and then? Unfortunately, yes. But NEVER NEVER to the extent that the Republicans did in Florida in 2000, in various states in 2002, Ohio in 2004 and even in many states in 2006 (see Landslide Denied by Jonathan Simon at the www.electiondefensealliance.org Web site.
Every election machine company donated heavily to the Republican party. None donated to the Democratic Party. Why do think that was? Wally O'Dell, president of Diebold at the time, promised to "deliver the vote to President Bush in 2004" and it was Diebold machines that did the delivering, along with huge disenfranchisement efforts by the co-chair of the Re-elect (er - re-select) Bush/Cheney campaign - that would be Ohio Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell.
The examples are everywhere. One only needs to look. And in general, unfortunately for Democrats, the Republicans know much better how to play to win by cheating and controlling the machines certainly makes certain the election goes the way of the Republican candidates.
I WISH this weren't a Republican vs Democratic party thing and that EVERYONE truly wanted fair and transparent and secure elections. I WISH we could get bi-partisan support for Election Integrity platform issues, but as it stands now, neither party will touch it. The Dems b/c they will be called sore losers and the Repubs because they ARE winning by cheating and rigging elections.
Bottom line - the American voter is f--ked! |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 2772
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 7:18 am: |
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Tom,
You are just so utterly wrong on your facts, it's unbelievable.
Here is just one example:
quote:"O'Dell, president of Diebold at the time, promised to "deliver the vote to President Bush in 2004" and it was Diebold machines that did the delivering, along with huge disenfranchisement efforts by the co-chair of the Re-elect (er - re-select) Bush/Cheney campaign - that would be Ohio Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell."
Tom, in 2004, there were virtually NO Diebold machines used in Ohio. There were only Diebold opscans in two very low population counties. That is just the fact. And what he ACTUALLY promised to "deliver" to Bush was Ohio's 20 electoral votes, which was to happen with fundraising and garnering support. He had just abot NO machines to use to deliver bupkiss. HAVA was only "kind of sort of" imlpemented by 2006. 2004 was pretty much "old tech", except for the VERY few early adopter states.
Frankly, Tom, you need to read A LOT more, and spout off A LOT less. You need to get in there, root around and fact-check the "party line" that you're being fed by partisanly motivated authors. When an author can't even get the raw FACTS correct, how on earth can you believe in his conclusions?
All the "sources" you rely on are HIGHLY HIGHLY partisanly motivated sites and authors. There simply IS NO ONE doing a thorough bi-partisan study or investigation of election fraud. EVERYTHING out there is being done by partisan Democrats trying to "prove" a Republican fraud machine - which DOES NOT EXIST!
Is there a net skew toward Republicans when exit polls are compared to actual returns. Yes, indeedy doody! But there are about 20 different plausible reasons for that, of which only one is fraud. Even the exit pollsters are admitting they are having problems getting accurate samples. And they have ALREADY informed us it's going to happen again in 2008. There simply are rapidly increasing differential response vs. refusal rates among the party faithfuls fueled PRIMARILY by their vastly different opinions of the media outlets whose logos are festooned all over the existing pollsters' clothing.
I know you may not agree, but wearing a CBS, NBC, ABC, AP, or PBS logo on your shirt (to say nothing of all of them together) and approaching a committed conservative is akin to wearing one that says, "I am your mortal enemy. Tell me how you voted." Committed conservatives (Limbaugh listeners) just so thoroughly HATE the major media outlets that they simply would rather stick needles in their eyes than talk to an exit pollster. The media outlets delude themselves when they view themselves as neutral. They are not, and conservatives know they are not.
The more people like Chris Matthews, George Stefanopolous, Tom Brokaw, and the network news anchors fawn all over the "historic" nature of Obama's candidacy, the worse this effect will get.
No Republican I know of ANYWHERE thinks the major networks are worthy of ANY trust in this election. They ALL believe the networks are in bed with Obama.
In fact, they ALL believe that ABC, NBC, CBS, AP (especially AP) ARE MORE the adversary than Obama is.
Until this country FUNDAMENTALLY changes WHO does exit polling AND HOW, they will continue to be more and more useless with each passing election.
==========================================
http://kurtspeak.blogspot.com
(some relevant to subjects here, most not)
|
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 9416
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 11:21 am: |
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Kurt, Lucas County ran Diebold machines in 2004. Lucas County is hardly low-population -- That's where Toledo is.
Also, when Blackwell wrote the letter promising to deliver the vote to Bush, he was in the process of trying to muscle through a statewide Diebold buy. So when you write:
quote:"He had just abot NO machines to use to deliver bupkiss."
it's actually you who is totally wrong. There was a massive effort to blanket Ohio with Diebold machines, led by Mr. Blackwell.
Activists successfully stalled it off, and had to contend with lawsuits and all kinds of strong-arming tactics.
So, you're right -- Cuyahoga, Franklin, ran on punch cards. Hamilton too, I think. That's Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati. But Toledo ran Diebold machines. Timelines are being conflated. The Diebold machines didn't ultimately control Ohio in 2004 -- correct, though they controlled a significant number of votes. But when Blackwell wrote the statement about delivering the election to Bush, he believed that Diebold would control the state. He wrote the statement in July or August 2003. The election didn't take place until 15 months later, kudos to the Ohio activists and to Ohio Senator Theresa Fedor for blocking the Diebold purchase. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 2775
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 11:54 am: |
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Actually, Franklin ran on Danahers, not punchcards.
O'Dell was Bush's fundraising chair in Ohio. They ALL use language like that, in both parties.
2 counties out of 88 is not what I call enough muscle to do much of anything. And did either of the two Diebold counties figure into any scandal? If they did, I have not heard of it.
When a writer like Tom Courbat tries to tie O'Dell's "promise" to the actual scandals of Ohio, after the fact, they're just plain wrong.
What O'Dell was TRYING to get into Ohio counties may or may not be interesting, but it has no relevancy to what happened on and after the actual Election Day.
So much time has been wasted on chasing down so-called fraud in Ohio in 2004, rather than look at where the wrong numbers were - the exit polls - and try to figure out where they went wrong.
ALL the stories about the exit poll to actual count variances ignore one thing - in nearly EVERY case, but particularly in Ohio, the ONLY poll that disagreed with all the others WAS the exit poll. The actual official results agree with all the "regular" polls leading up to the election. That SHOULD lead a neutral observer to one conclusion - the faith in the exit polls is completely misplaced.
See this article:
http://www.letxa.com/ohio2004.php
Yes, many say, but we use exit polls to discredit elections all over the world. Why not here?
Simple. The overseas exit polls are just better done polls. Ours are crap compared to the ones used overseas.
They use respected academic institutions with accomplished statisticians doing careful sampling of a LARGE percentage of precincts to do theirs. We use teenagers in t-shirts with TV network logos on them, take VERY small samples of precincts to poll, which are not targeted at all to reflect the electorate generally, and then we "train" those teenagers with a 20-minute telephone call only, during which they might be also playing a video game or studying for midterms.
And we have the gall to wonder.
There simply is no fundamental reason for Fitrakis, or Freeman, or ANYONE to have faith in our 2004 exit polls OTHER THAN by gratuitously and incorrectly "importing" the virtues of the European exit polls onto the National Election Pool exit polls, even though their methodologies do not support the importation of those virtues. None of these writers have done ANYTHING to examine the virtues, or the lack thereof, of the NEP exit polling methodology other than to magically wave their hands and assume that NEP is as good as the fetishistically thorough German exit polls are.
I think Fitrakis and Freeman and their brethren have ignored this PRECISELY because the instant they do so, their precious and pre-ordained conclusions crumble instantly. They have CONNED their readers by conveniently assuming the truth of something (the validity of the NEP methodology) that is manifestly UNTRUE.
Think of why NEP (Edison/Mitofsky) gets the project. It isn't because they're that good. They get it because they'll do it on the cheap, relative to anyone else.
==========================================
http://kurtspeak.blogspot.com
(some relevant to subjects here, most not)
|
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 9423
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 5:05 pm: |
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quote:Actually, Franklin ran on Danahers, not punchcards.
I knew that.  |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 5212
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2008 - 1:55 am: |
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quote:So much time has been wasted on chasing down so-called fraud in Ohio in 2004, rather than look at where the wrong numbers were - the exit polls - and try to figure out where they went wrong.
What about the obvious punch-card hanky-panky? Have you read the articles/book about this, and looked at the actual scanned ballots online?
The problems with the OH 2004 election went way beyond "exit polls". |
Mike Copass
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Votes_with_paper
Post Number: 53
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 11:03 am: |
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Is San Diego County on the "watch list"?
Cuyahoga's Michael Vu is now the Asst Registrar of Voters. The Registrar, Deborah Seiler, is a former Diebold representative.
"first they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Gandhi
|
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 9480
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 6:42 pm: |
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Yes, San Diego is on the Watch List. You can check the Watch List locations in any state by clicking that state forum. The view that opens up shows all the counties, and the Watch List counties are marked with 
I added San Juan County, Washington to the Watch List today. |
sammy herring
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Dad
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, October 5, 2008 - 2:59 pm: |
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what if each voter is issued a reciept, at the time they vote, this way they can verify who they voted for.
then later scan it and e-mail to a voter watch dog group,this way they can verify the results. |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 9844
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, October 5, 2008 - 5:52 pm: |
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That removes political privacy and, more important, doesn't really help.
The public needs to be able to see ALL the votes, not just one. Think of it like getting a bank statement, having the bank tell you to "trust them" that they have the right balance, while refusing to show you all the transactions. Out of all the bank fees, service charges, checks they say you wrote, ATM withdrawals they say you made, they only let you see one, then tell you to "trust" that the rest are correct.
Welcome to Black Box Voting, Sammy, your comment is one people think of often, and I'm glad to see you considering solutions. The real solution is to remove secrecy and let the public see all the votes, and prohibit hiding information from the public. We've got a long ways to go.
See the new Protect the Count video for actions you can take this election to help:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3_xFb1sWKU |
Joel Morine
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Erased
Post Number: 187
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 12:24 pm: |
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"Say what?!?!? Another area where the mantra that "all election irregularities favor Republicans" isn't true?
How can this be? ... I suspect this poster must be lying. Everyone knows all electoral crooks are Republicans, right?
[For those new, this is rampant sarcasm.]
The ONLY reason that anyone can even write anything like "all election irregularities favor Republicans" without giggling is because they are partisans, not election integrity people."
I'll offer 2 criticisms of this post, Kurt.
One is the misplaced sarcasm directed at a straw man you chose for the purpose...
i.e.: the vast majority of regular posters here make no such assertion, & explicitly state that the issue isn't which party does this, both do, which is double the reason to do what is logistically possible to maximize the likelihood of real vote counts. The sarcasm is especially misplaced in response to an eg. in which someone is talking about what is apparently democratic fraud (the "apparently" disclaimer isn't there becuz it's democrats, & I'll trust you recognize it as characteristic phrasing).
A 2nd difficulty I rarely see mentioned, is --
to the degree one regards the 2 parties in their self-ascribed mythic terms --
Republican party representing sound bizness principles...
Democratic party representing populist working class aspirations & safety nets...
(I'll trust you to trust that we both regard these shorthands as gross oversimplificatns for the sake of more succinct statement...)
-- quite often Democratic party frauds are serving the same self-appointed backstage overlords' agendas that Republican party frauds do...
in districts where voter demographics require a "democratic populist" mask rather than a "republican biz protectn" mask.
Pendergast in Missouri, Johnson in Cleveland, Boston, Boss Ruef in San Fran post1900 (a Republican who couldn't work his way into either party's boss.sys so he created his own "labor" party & played many same graft games the 2 parties made standard in other older cities)...
talked a populist game in Democrat/Labor guise, but their graft didn't support any democratic agendas, except as fronts for other activities...
& their partners in tax embezzlement "legitimizing" schemes were the same sort of deep-pockets-from-thieving hi-rollers the Republican party more openly represents, while the Demos pretend to oppose until the backstage doors to cloaked rooms are sufficiently closed.
Both Roosevelts were classic masks for this game.
As a classic case, by many reports both parties tried to outwait each other to deliver phony#s in Illinois in '60...
& then Kennedy invited Robert Lovett to choose his key cabinet apptmts.
That's Robert Lovett whose position in Averell Harriman's organizatn was the equivalent of Prescott Bush's.
Lovett's key foreign policy cabinet choices were, (trumpet flourish
Eisenhower's
(Dulles Bros were SO enamored of Democratic values)?
Well, Lovett's JFK cabinet choices were only Ike's if one thinks Eisenhower was more Prez & less mask than Kennedy.
What's more Kennedy chose the very men Ike whose handiwork Ike was warning us of in his famous petulant parting shot re: "military industrial complex".
Harriman played all kinds of very interesting key roles in Democratic admins, as well as Republican...none of them serving "the people".
The disguises change, the election verbiage we vote for differs, but the actions delivered don't match the verbiage we voted for when either party wins -- except to the degree required to offer us a fig leaf of pretention that our party is credibly doing what it says. Still, the differences to working class people re: which fig leaf we've elected are huge.
What gets delivered comes from the same sources...
which value Republican voters' values as little as they value Democratic voters' values... |
Joel Morine
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Erased
Post Number: 188
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 12:30 pm: |
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Kurt,
I'm aware that post covered too much ground w/ too few too debatable words, so I'd invite you to criticize the ideas w/ better respect for the intent than the overquick sloppy shorthand phrasings deserve, rather than nitpick the phrasings -- which I'll eagerly admit deserve it.
P.S. Haven't made opportunity to say so, but congratulations on the new job. Hope yr enjoying it. You've earned something of the kind w/ yr good work here, & I trust elsewhere as well.
(Now why did I think to say that 20min after I gave such a grand opportunity to slam my sloppy language above? So much coincidence to the mysterious workings in the darkest corners of the human psyche???)
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Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 2231
Registered: 1-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 5:16 am: |
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Jesus, Joel, you're very hard to read. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 5317
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 6:43 am: |
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quote:Pendergast in Missouri, Johnson in Cleveland, Boston, Boss Ruef in San Fran post1900
No idea who these people are or what this is about. A brief synopsis would help when referring to historical events that might not be common knowledge. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 2804
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 11:15 am: |
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Joel,
I hope you're using a virtual keyboard, a la the iPhone. It would explain a lot, eh, Brant?
Posts are tough to read, but contain nuggets worth the task.
==========================================
http://kurtspeak.blogspot.com
(some relevant to subjects here, most not)
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Joel Morine
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Erased
Post Number: 190
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 11:47 am: |
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"Pendergast in Missouri, Johnson in Cleveland, Boston, Boss Ruef in San Fran post1900"
There was a major uprising of self-organizing voters in final decades of 19th century in response to what had been accomplished by our post-civil war 1-party govt in the way of creating multi-millionaires by welfare-scams involving kickbacks to congressfolk & corrupt state&city political machines.
Govt-assisted RRmonopolies, land-giveaways, & stock manipulation scams by the same welfare-scam recipients had gradually generated a wide range of angry responses from citizens, incl a revival of the DemocraticParty as (in some regions) a seeming political "alternative" to Republican theft-kickback systems.
In midwest this response tended to occur w/in Republican Party, creating a sort of 3rd party of "independent" Republican congressmen of varied views.
Pendergast in Missouri, Johnson in Cleveland, Boston, Boss Ruef in San Fran post1900 were all egs of "reform" political machines that harnessed outraged citizens' political energy into local "reform" movements that owned local voters' loyalties -- as alternatives to familiar mainline Republican political-economic corruptions -- for varied lengths of time.
In all these, and many other egs of "reform" organizations, what voters got was an appearance of reform that had the same sorts of backstage relations w/ wealthy corruptors that were standard in the Repbulican party.
In some cases, these reform leaders appear to have been sincere, & gradually had to settle for what was possible when the legal system so favored illegal behaviors by those w/ excess wealth to spend on corrupting apt targets w/in govt & judiciary (& experienced resourceful lawyers who were creative & flexible abt choosing targets apt to each situation).
In other cases, "reform" admins were clearly cynical creations from the start, whose goal was to ride voters' anger into a situation where the faux-reformers could cash in the way Republican politicians & their corporate tax-farming cronies had been cashing in for decades.
Then there was a later tactic developed by the folk whose ownership of so much of US industrial economy had been earned via the Republican party's kickback-fraud protection-systems in federal & state legislatures & judiciary.
Call it JPMorgan political reform if you will.
Both Roosevelt prezs, & '24Dem prez candidate JohnDavis, are all excellent egs.
Do one thing when you are young that gets you a newspaper rep as an independent thinker who stands up for what you value when the "power" is pushing the other direction...& you become an ideal JPMorgan "reform" candidate.
W/ TRoosevelt it was a rather cynical show of NYcity police reform that made a small temporary difference, but established TR's lifelong misplaced rep as an independent maverick.
JohnDavis had one early lawsuit that earned him a youthful local rep as an independent "populist", but was JPMorgan's anti-trust attorney by the time he won Dem nominatn in '24.
My pt is that what we get when we elect these "alternatives" is Republican agendas in Democratic clothing; w/ a thin but celebrated veneer of (often chimerical) "alternative".
Hence the pt I was making in reply to Kurt's remark:
The ONLY reason that anyone can even write anything like "all election irregularities favor Republicans" without giggling is because they are partisans, not election integrity people.
In fact, most election irregularities favoring "Democrats" like Pendergast, Johnson, or UnionLaborParty boss Rueff in SF1905 are in fact "favoring" the same old Republican agenda of criminal ownership of govt as a personal taxfarm for govt-created govt-protected welfare scams that benefit the same folk who use the Republican Party for that purpose.
The difference between TammanyHall & the Pennsylvania Republican machine of BossPratt is a difference in what rhetorical buttons were pushed, & what sorts of folk had access to some social climbing enabled by political patronage jobs in govt.
Calling it Republican or Democratic graft misses the point that both flavors of corruption favor one same class of tax-farming welfare-thieves...
(call it no-bid Defense Spending, or ChinaLobby foreign-aid Chiang-kickback schemes, or S&L deregulation, or another WallSt bailout, if you prefer...I call it varieties of high-price welfare fraud)
...whom the Republican party has openly represented so consistently that at times it seems the ONLY constituency they care about.
Well, we do get something "different" from "reform" politicians & Democratic machines posing as more truly representing voter concerns.
As first (inescapable) priority, we get the same priority given to ultra-rich folks' govt-financed welfare-scams...
...but then we also get a veneer of pretending to also represent other voters
(w/ some unknowable many Democratic politicians, it is apt to substitute "representing" for "pretending to represent").
For a huge # of Americans, the differences in policy that occur as part of pretending that veneer of difference, make very real differences in quality of life issues.
But we often pay significant prices for those veneers of difference.
One price is that the Morgans Rockefellers DuPonts Harrimans & other well-coordinated beneficiaries of Fed-govt's endless stream of welfare-scams & TrojanHorse "reforms" (that come w/ bigtime down-the-road hidden agendas)
seem to prefer to deliver some of their biggest game-changing profit-scams while wearing their liberal Democrat Presidential masks.
An additional value of elections, by the way, in this system where the same perps are the financial hub for both parties' spokes,
is the ways campaigns are used to establish several 'consensus' that suit folk behind both parties but don't suit the majority of citizens.
Thus we've already established in recent presidential debates that the next admin will:
(1) be invading Afghanistan whether we're still mired in Iraq or not,
(2) favor continuing the disastrous agendas of "No Child Left Behind" (an essay too long for me to go into here),
(3) favor further bailouts once this recent $700bil ?disappears into offshore accounts? or other effective hiding places.
Another value is buy-in.
O'bama will be able to do any Republican thing he wants to, as Pelosi has,
& will have a lot of support from Dems who voted for him hoping for something else, but feel they need to stand behind their vote...
...much as so many Republicans still celebrate Reagan despite his
record deficitspending,
payments to hostages' kidnappers after so much boisterous election rhetoric opposing "rewarding terrorism" by paying kidnappers,
& his support/protection of OllieNorth's coke-smuggling guns-to-terrorists "financing" of (most of the cash collected never made it to) an illegal war in Nicaragua while Nancy urged everybody except Ollie&friends to "Just Say No" to drugs.
The alternative for Dems if O'bama acts like a Republican if/once elected, will be...? |
Joel Morine
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Erased
Post Number: 191
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 12:00 pm: |
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P.S. A 3rd value is subjects near & dear to voters' hearts that neither candidate will speak to.
Do a majority of voters in either party favor:
the PatriotAct revoking so much of the Bill of Rights?
Privatized warfare, prison systems, education frauds?
Expanding debt while minimizing govt services?
Jobs gone overseas while the CEOs sending them there get huge bonuses just before their corps declare bankruptcy or cancel employee pensions for lack of funds?
No need to account for privatized sub-contracted Fed.spending in Iraq?
The candidates' substantive silence on these issues is its own form of consensus previewing the next presidency's continuation of these political vectors. |
Joel Morine
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Erased
Post Number: 192
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 12:08 pm: |
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So, to say it succinctly,
most current election fraud does seem to favor...
not Republican voters, but the folk whom the Republican party favors in preference to the Republican voters it prefers to play for fools...
as most pro-Democrat election fraud also favors the folk whom the Democratic party favors in preference to the Democratic voters so much of the Democratic party also prefers to play for fools...
...& who are either set of voters going to vote for once they realize they're being played for fools?
Ask the 40% of eligible voters who never vote?
(...hardly a constructive alternative path -- it suits the hub financing both parties' spokes even better than financing our fraternal twin parties does) |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 5330
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 3:54 pm: |
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Thanks for those great posts providing a historical perspective.
Our 2-party system is deceptive in many ways. It's mostly appearances and spin--and who really benefits?
There do seem to be legislators who are willing to take a principled stance--but maybe even then it tends to be on a narrow range of issues as opposed to doing anything that would seriously challenge the true balance of power ($$$$ behind the scenes).
There are some that are better or worse than others, but the system itself is corrupting over time.
I take heart from the fact that places like Porto Alegre (Brazil) exist where there is direct democracy and where decisions are made that really do serve the local public who make them. Maybe there is an idea of value there--maybe so-called "representative" democracy isn't such a hot idea after all, since there's no way to exert influence other than infrequent elections.
If money could be taken out of politics completely it might make some changes, but those with lots of $$$ might still find ways to create loopholes or exert influence in other ways. (Do this/don't do this--"or else".)
At the very minimum we need to be awake and involved and paying attention so that when there is an opportunity to move in the direction of change we are ready and able to do so. The more we can create and participate in occasions for good quality decision-making at the local political, community or workplace level, the more we will learn to request the same fairness and transparency at broader political levels. |
cory slep
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Usna_hopeful
Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 4:24 pm: |
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Charlotte is a huge city in North Carolina (Sometimes cynically we refer to ourselves as the "Little Atlanta"), and the sprawl reaches far outside of Mecklenburg County. However, as far as I am aware, all the precincts within the city utilize the iVotronic systems.
- This year, anyplace still using ES&S iVotronics. Those machines are so demonstrably corrupt and in most locations, so entirely vendor-dependent that I consider any election using them to be void.
So... the half a million registered voters or so within the county would certainly be a "small" invalidation. Of course, watching all ~190 precincts would be tough.
I guess I'd say this county should be on the list not only for that, but how unconcerned the city seems to be. |
Joel Morine
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Erased
Post Number: 196
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 12:22 pm: |
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I take heart from the fact that places like Porto Alegre (Brazil) exist where there is direct democracy and where decisions are made that really do serve the local public who make them.
I fully agree. There are all kinds of examples that function on smaller levels of govt,
on national levels in other eras & other nations,
& non-govt arenas.
The fact money can go anywhere citizens can go,
is a difficulty that grows larger w/ size of populatn represented;
but we can, & have at pts in past,
done much better than we are doing now
at seeking/requiring somewhat representative govt.
Cory, welcome, &
Thanks for returning this thread to its intended subject... |
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