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Carole DelTurco
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Caroledt
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, November 5, 2006 - 8:33 am: | 
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Live in Douglas County Colorado, have absentee ballot that I will hand deliver.Ballot is approx 16 x 11", two sided. There are 3 barcodes on each side,all different, NOT on a tear off. Can I use these barcodes to verify my vote was recorded correctly post election? |
Dan Oetting
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Dan_oetting
Post Number: 211
Registered: 07-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, November 5, 2006 - 11:29 am: |
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Many elections departments have forgotten the basic practices that assure the voters that the election will be fair.
Any bar codes on the ballot should only identify the election, precinct and ballot style. There should be no individual identification on the ballot. The ballot would be placed in a secrecy envelope and then the secrecy envelope would be placed in the return envelope. I would expect the return envelope to have a bar code of either your voter ID or a ballot number.
The return envelope of the provisional ballots in Colorado have a tear off tracking number and a toll free number to call to verify if the ballot was received and counted. I cannot find a similar provision for Absentee/Mail-in ballots.
After the election you should be able to ask your county elections department if they recorded that you voted in the election. They should be able to look this up with your name or voter ID from you registration card. Unfortunately there will be nothing you can do if you find out that your vote was lost. |
Daniel Frank McMullan
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Seevotedan
Post Number: 84
Registered: 03-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, November 6, 2006 - 3:15 pm: |
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Colorado Board of Election will be able to tell you if they received your ballot. You will NOT however know if your ballot was counted or even counted correctly.
Colorado will be looking into the use of seeVote (an election monitoring system) that will allow all voters to see their votes throughout the election process. This is an amazing system that will remove e-voting and counting in secrecy.
Check it out:
http://www.seevote.com
BTW: Absentee is dangerous. How do we know you did not sell you vote using absentee ballot? |
Craig Bergren
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Babyhuey
Post Number: 10
Registered: 11-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 8, 2006 - 10:09 pm: |
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Carole,
There's a sacred tenent of voting that the vote has to be secret. That means that it can never be verified as being counted as you wish. The politicians are afraid that if you can verify your vote was counted, you can sell it to a thug or one can coerce you into voting in some particular way they want you to vote. The secret way, they don't have to pay you, they can just make it up for free.
Daniel has been advocating this see vote system, which allows you to verify your vote. I have some concerns about that. I don't see any way that I can verify my vote that wouldn't allow a thug to also verify my vote and do me harm when she finds out I gave her a decoy receipt.
I like the other aspects of the system though. A human readable ballot that I can verify before I put it into the scanner (blue haired or mechanical). Providing the raw votes to the public so that anyone who wants to can verify the count.
Today I'm more afraid of the election officials than I am of any thug, but that's because I have complete anonymity today.
This election was the first one I've ever used a paper ballot. I like it a lot better than the punch card because I know that if it ever comes to an audit, the blue haired ladies will have a much easier time distinguishing the marks on paper than they do trying to determine which of the teeny tiny holes was punched.
Craig |
Daniel Frank McMullan
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Seevotedan
Post Number: 115
Registered: 03-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, November 9, 2006 - 8:01 pm: |
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Craig says: I don't see any way that I can verify my vote that wouldn't allow a thug to also verify my vote and do me harm when she finds out I gave her a decoy receipt.
seeVote has a solution.
The reason you and most people dont understand how to stop a thug from using receipts for coercion, is the same reason seeVote is so exciting!
let us discuss seeVote!!
Find the answer here.. instead of me answering again and again..
my response to JT and Brad's attack on seeVote's anonymous receipts are here (see for yourself!)
http://www.bbvforums.org/cgi-bin/forums/show.cgi?tpc=72&post=30332#POST30332
Brad and JT, days later, have yet to respond .. cause you cant argue against the unique and clever logic used in seeVote.
people can see for themselves.. seeVote.com
tell me what you think, thanks for your time!!
(Message edited by seeVoteDan on November 09, 2006) |
Jt Gleason
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Entropyfails
Post Number: 56
Registered: 11-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, November 9, 2006 - 9:04 pm: |
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Brad and JT, days later, have yet to respond .. cause you cant argue against the unique and clever logic used in seeVote.
This to is simple.
Since seeVote allows a voter to print receipts of other existing ballots (at the voting booth), any ballot shown to a would-be coercion specialist does not prove voter intention!!!!
Matter of fact, because the ability to print these "decoy receipts" exists, one's real receipt is protected, without the need to print a decoy receipt at all to remain anonymously protected. This is a very important concept to understanding the power seeVote and fraud-free elections.
What you cannot understand is that these questions have been answered, many times by me and others. I guess I'll do it again for fun. This time, I'll run the logic backwards in the vain hope that you may gain understanding into your own poorly formalized ideas.
Let us say that someone wants to Coerce you into voting in some manner. For example, let us say that a Bush supporter wants to ensure that you, as a Democrat, do not vote for Kerry.
Are you with me on this point? This is easy to see correct?
They demand that you SeeVote for "SpongeBob Squarepants for President."
Now you take a receipt for "Bush" and a receipt for "Kerry". According to your ideas, there is no way to prove that it is YOUR vote. You turn it into the bad guys.
The Bad Guys look online and they find that there is no votes for "Spongebob". So no matter what way you voted, no matter what receipts you turned in, they know you are lying.
Not very anonymous eh? |
Daniel Frank McMullan
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Seevotedan
Post Number: 119
Registered: 03-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 1:13 pm: |
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JT,
you almost understand! hang in there!
in your example above.. "the Bad Guys" will take your DECOY receipt .. and find that your DECOY receipt IS online!! wow!!
because the decoy receipt for you .. is someone else's REAL receipt..
get it??
in seeVote every voter has access to one randomly cast ballot of any candidate.
yes , for now, we are talking about a one-race ballot .. as to preserve anonymity.
this protects the Thug from purchasing votes!
SpongeBob would not be on the ballot AND no one really vote for him/it/she.
I understand where you did not understand seeVote from the start.. it is ok.. do you get it now?
(Message edited by seeVoteDan on November 10, 2006) |
Matt R. Jezorek
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Mattjez
Post Number: 17
Registered: 11-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 2:04 pm: |
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So lets say I modify your code on your server thats running 50 other sites by any other means of getting in would not be that hard with that much exposure Now I change what I want it shows what I want you the voter to see, the voter thinks the vote is valid and that the vote actually went to the candidate it was supposed to so they validate the vote and say well my vote counted and they now have a "sense" of security when really its nothing more then a false sense of security. If you cant trust the machine tallying the vote why should I trust your machine saying my vote is valid? |
Jt Gleason
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Entropyfails
Post Number: 58
Registered: 11-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 2:44 pm: |
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SpongeBob would not be on the ballot AND no one really vote for him/it/she.
1) You never mentioned no write in votes. So you are limiting the voting system. I didn't misunderstand anything, you never mentioned that fact.
2) You have introduced a "chicken-and-egg" problem. Let us say that "the bad guys" decided to force you to vote Bush. They coerce you into being first in line to vote. Then when you go in and pull the ballot, they can instantly check to ensure that you have voted correctly by being the SECOND person to vote. See that?
Everyone that votes after you thus has some information on your vote. While during the course of an election that become small, your probabilities start out very large. Hence you can communicate information across SeeVote in violation of what you have said. |
Dan Oetting
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Dan_oetting
Post Number: 237
Registered: 07-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 4:43 pm: |
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I thought we laid seeVote to rest months ago. The advocates keep digging up the corps, dusting it off and pretending it's a fresh new idea.
When we have a proper system for presenting the pros and cons such as a wiki I'll put some more effort into this debate. Otherwise I suggest you dig through the archives to see what's already been discussed. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 1040
Registered: 01-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 9:19 pm: |
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Dan originally claimed that it would allow you to verify your vote without anybody else being able to tell how you'd voted if you voted a 'decoy ballot' too. What it turned into is that you could verify that all the ballots you cast (real and decoy) were in the 'SeeVote' ballot box, but you couldn't distinguish which would be counted by the officials. |
Matt R. Jezorek
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Mattjez
Post Number: 26
Registered: 11-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 9:31 pm: |
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Or what if I coerce you to vote in some method and wait for you to vote and strong arm the receipt out of your hands before you can post a "decoy" balot?
Voting is not the Olympics. There are no votes awarded for difficulty
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Daniel Frank McMullan
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Seevotedan
Post Number: 122
Registered: 03-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, November 11, 2006 - 1:00 pm: |
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JT,
thank you for this honest debate!
..and in a format we can all understand.
You bring up two good points.
I have a rebuttal.
PLEASE RESPOND HERE
The seeVote Calculator Thread
http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/72/45209.html
1) Yes, "Write-ins" are problematic.
You never mentioned no write in votes. -You never said you wanted write-ins.
I rationalize not including write-ins in these 4 ways:
-- a) NOT carried in all states
-- a) If candidate can't get X amount of petitions signed to be on the ballot, then this candidate should not be on ballot.
-- b) Voter hand writing/spelling ties ballot to voter
-- c) Ability to have write-in should not stand in the way of voter-verified results!
JT, what is the advantage to democracy to insist on write-in candidates?
2) Yes, display of ALL ballots DURING the receipt collection phase would be a problem.
To resolve this, two issues have to be addressed.
-- a) The first voters have a special opening process to disguise their ballots.
-- b) Only a limited amount of receipts per party are available to each voter to be used as a decoy receipt.
Maybe the seeVote calculator helps visualize things.
-- a) Special Opening Process
The special opening process for first voters would involve DECOY ballots. These are produced in equal amounts (the example
shows 1 decoy ballot per candidate).
These decoy ballots are pooled together with the ballots of the first voters. From that pool, the first voters may pick a decoy receipt.
There a few ways each state can decide how to handle this. I do not care to spend time debating how to do this best, but clearly a solution can be found.
Suggestions:
-- a1) Volunteers to vote without collecting receipts til later in the day.
-- a2) Three members of each party vote first without receipts til later.
etc..
-- b) Limit of receipts available
The machine which prints the ballots receipts can also be used to print a receipt for any of the candidates by randomly selecting a cast ballot, instead of allowing the voter to select from a list of cast ballots.
JT, I too belive strongly we must eliminate or minimized the ability for coersionin in our voting system.
Even though the law does allow coersion, as we have in Oregon and their use of state-wide ballots-by-mail, seeVote protects us from the thugs anyway. Nothing prevents a ballot-by-mail being sold to the highest bidder. I am less concerned about the current laws and voting standards .. as I am to promote a system that is TRUSTworthy and without coercion. |
