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| (US) 10/06 - Electronic Voting; A Sol... |
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| Author |
Message |
    
Josh Guffin
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Guffin
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 11:20 am: | 
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Why can't voting machines print out a paper ballot, which is dropped by the voter into a ballot box like any paper-based election. Then, if the results of the machine are challenged, the paper printouts may be counted.
This seems like a straightforward way to provide a voter-verifiable paper trail. |
Dan Berman Jr.
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Danbergenjr
Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 11:47 am: |
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In a somewhat simplistic answer, because when the idiot legislators (I'm editoralizing) who approved the electronic voting process with the Help America Vote Act, created the laws governing electronic voting, they made paper trail accountability of electronic voting machines ILLEGAL.
The only plausible reason for this (again, editorial) is that it was slipped through by Republican lawmakers whose party is publicly backed by all the major electronic voting machine companies (Diebold, Sequoia...).
I do believe that now about 27 states have adopted their own law that require a paper trail, but we're barely over half way there. A paper trail for all states should be federal law, not against federal law like it was originally written. |
Dan Berman Jr.
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Danbergenjr
Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 1:16 pm: |
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From what I remember in the 2004 election, all 10 swing states in that election had Kerry winning pretty handily by about midnight in the polls. Then, remarkably (and mathematically impossibly according to most mathematicians), all 10 swing states went to George Bush.
Does anyone know which states (like I said, I think there's 27 now) require paper ballots as a backup? Mainly I'm interested in the 9 or so Senate races that could swing the Senate to the Democrats: NJ, Penn, MIN, etc... I'd like to know which of the nine pivotal/close races are in states where paper trails are not required, so I can follow those states on election night, see if the Democratic candidate wins in the polls, but loses the election. And then more importantly, see if the general population cares this time!
If anyone has any insight into those close races and the status of their voting (paper trail/ no paper trail), can you please let me know.
Thanks,
Dan |
Michael W Mather
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Gypsy
Post Number: 98
Registered: 07-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 1:28 pm: |
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Dan,
I think you were misinformed. HAVA does not make paper ballots or paper trails illegal. If it did, the states would not be able to pass these laws requiring their use in elections, including those for Federal office.
The bad thing is that some anti-democratic states, like Florida, have gone the other way, outlawing any use of paper ballot/trail/record when DRE's are used.
Oh, and I don't think Sequoia has a connection to the the Republican Party in their history. They are now under investigation by the Feds on account of their foreign (Venezuelan) ownership.
Remember, this is a non-partisan site. |
Michael W Mather
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Gypsy
Post Number: 99
Registered: 07-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 1:35 pm: |
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See this recent thread for a discussion of exit poll issues (and some other stuff): "Shouldn't Black Box Voting demand the release of the Edison/Mitofsky exit poll data?"
http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/73/44649.html?1162211215 |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 689
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 1:55 pm: |
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Dan,
Pennsylvania - No paper trail on DRE's. Not to worry. Your man Casey is a lock, even with paperless DRE's.
So what happens if and when, in places like PA, with all paperless DRE's, the Democratic candidates sweep all the pivotal races, or nearly all of them? Can we then get back to reality, and decide that election integrity is NOT about the evil Republicans, but is in fact a fully bipartisan or nonpartisan issue? |
Michael W Mather
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Gypsy
Post Number: 100
Registered: 07-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 1:55 pm: |
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In NJ we don't have paper ballots/trails at this time. The legislature voted to require a paper record, but it doesn't go into effect until 2007.
(Except that some NJ counties still count their absentee ballots by hand, so if we all voted that way ...
Of course, Bev has just warned us of the potential problems with absentee voting:
http://www.bbvforums.org/cgi-bin/forums/board-auth.cgi?file=/1954/44808.html At a minimum, one should deliver the ballot in person, not through the mail.) |
Dan Oetting
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Dan_oetting
Post Number: 189
Registered: 07-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 6:03 pm: |
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Here is a link I found earlier on the status of paper in each states elections: <http://electionline.org/default.aspx?tabid=290> |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 982
Registered: 01-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 8:07 pm: |
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Kurt said: "So what happens if and when, in places like PA, with all paperless DRE's, the Democratic candidates sweep all the pivotal races, or nearly all of them? Can we then get back to reality, and decide that election integrity is NOT about the evil Republicans, but is in fact a fully bipartisan or nonpartisan issue?"
What does that mean, Kurt? It's partisan for any party that lost and can't be sure they lost legitimately, how would it be any other way? If someone has cheated in an election, then they've cheated for an individual that belongs to a party or individuals that belong to a party or parties, the acts in themselves are partisan.
Is protection of elections something that should be bi-partisan? Sure! Mafiosi should voluntarily turn themselves in to the cops with evidence, too, but it isn't likely to happen.
The fact that a freakishly large number of anamolies favored the Republicans in the last election combines with little or no change of 'possession' of the voting machines in those same areas that the anamolies occurred in, to have people suspecting the Republicans, as they naturally would. Get over it. That's meant kindly, but people shouldn't have to tiptoe around this with you, or have you beating them up over it. And I don't know about you, but it isn't the 'lower-downs' that I expect have done this sort of thing anyway, it's the 'higher-ups'. I don't think the poll workers have anything to do with this. Why do you think Blackwell required all the memory cards be shipped to him? He's centrallizing. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 693
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 6:27 am: |
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Brant,
Election reform should never be about suspecting one parrty over another. I don't trust the people running elections in my area either, and they're all VERY partisan Democrats.
And they're all very partisan Democrats at BOTH the local AND state level. I DO TRUST the state folks. They've never given me any reason to distrust them, and their power is minimal in my state. ALL KINDS of power resides at the county level, and those people I wouldn't trust as far as I can throw them.
After all, the Elction Director is the wife of a man convicted of federal political corruption charges, who did serious federal prison time.
(Message edited by Formerelecdir on October 31, 2006) |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 989
Registered: 01-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 10:01 am: |
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In each individual instance it is about one individual taking unfair advantage over either another (the candidate) or many (the voters), or both, depending on how you want to look at it. As it is also about taking unfair advantage over the voting populace as a whole, and I will grant you that is non-partisan. However, the people who feel most wounded (to the greatest degree) are those who were cheated against. This is natural, as they are the most wounded.
You're making a mistake here, you're assuming by partisan that I mean a specific political party (and always the same one) . I have no doubt it switches in both time and place. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 990
Registered: 01-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 10:03 am: |
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And frankly, blind trust in either is stupid, always 'cut the cards'. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 696
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 11:03 am: |
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Brant,
Good to read this:
"You're making a mistake here, you're assuming by partisan that I mean a specific political party (and always the same one) . I have no doubt it switches in both time and place."
And THAT, quite frankly, is what has a few people here ticked off at me on this site. The people I need to worry about HERE and NOW are the OPPOSITE party of the folks people want to point to in 2000 and 2004. I live in a world where the Democrats are the ones holding ALL the reigns of power, and they have put some of the shadiest people in control of the electoral apparatus. The local press here protects them, and even coddles them. There is no adversarial media here. The "political" reporter covering the Election Board is herself a "flower child" that never got over the "Age of Aquariius" thing. It is all run by editors with a leftist agenda. And I'm talking locally here. So forgive me if I don't look at "election reform" through a Bush/Cheney/Rove = Evil sort of filter. It's not about them, here, or frankly anywhere else. It's all local. Even Bev has become keenly aware of this. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 3359
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 12:36 pm: |
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Lots of us are aware of this, Kurt.
Some voters live in places where the roles are reversed from your scenario, so they surely share your frustration and you can surely understand theirs. Noone should assume that local partisan dynamics are the same everywhere, because they're not. |
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