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Len Rideout
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Rideout
Post Number: 1
Registered: 06-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 6:35 pm: | 
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September 21. From Boston.com.
By Donovan Slack and Maria Cramer, Boston Globe Staff
Incumbent Dianne Wilkerson declared victory early this evening with an apparent 692-vote victory after election officials counted write-in votes from eight precincts that had been overlooked in Tuesday's primary.
However, Sonia Chang-Diaz, the second place challenger, had not conceded the election as of 6:30 p.m.
The hand count of 2,709 ballots took about four hours and gave Wilkerson a total of 6,395 votes to Chang-Diaz's 5,703 votes.
Results reported by the Globe can be viewed here. When officials began tallying the ballots at 2:30 p.m., Wilkerson clung to a 141-vote lead over Chang-Diaz.
Workers on the eighth floor of City Hall counted ballots in three, two-member teams. One person examined the ballots while another tallied the votes. Onlookers watched in rows of chairs that had been set up behind a velvet rope. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 907
Registered: 01-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 5:09 am: |
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One person examined the ballots while another tallied the votes? I've got to bet you that the 'tallyer' didn't get a good look at the ballot. What a load of crap. |
Nancy Tobi
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ntobi
Post Number: 62
Registered: 01-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 6:09 am: |
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It's not a total load of crap; it's an accepted and probably standard method. But you are right, it is not the best method by any means. In our manual recounts in NH, the candidates or their representatives have the right (are invited) to sit across from the 2-person team of counters. They are invited to review every ballot and every vote as it is counted aloud and tallied, and they have the right to challenge if desired.
Massachusetts process could be improved with this minor change. That way the observers can catch any errors in the count or the tally. It's easy for your mind to wander as you go through the monotonous process of tallying votes using this method, and it is extremely beneficial to have that check and balance provided by the observers or challengers.
A side benefit to this method is that any belligerence the challenger may feel quickly vaporizes as they become integrated into the process of the count.
One phrase you tend to hear a lot in the NH recount room is "everybody is going to have a chance to see every ballot."
It's an extraordinarily civil manner in which to decide political representation.
I've written a short piece on my recount experience yesterday in New Hampshire. You can see it here.
Additionally, in the 2006 NH Election Procedure Manual, our Secretary of State's office has released an excellent hand count method, especially for single seat race counts. The manual is not yet published online, but you can find that method (sort-stack) described in the DFNH We're Counting the Votes Kit. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 3277
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 7:18 am: |
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I think the sort, stack and count method is faster and more accurate than the tally method. It is also extremely easy and fast to double-check. All counts should be cross-checked by a different person/team and results should only be accepted if the second team comes up with the exact same count. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 909
Registered: 01-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 10:53 am: |
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"It's not a total load of crap; it's an accepted and probably standard method. But you are right, it is not the best method by any means." It doesn't say both people examined the ballot, it says: "One person examined the ballots while another tallied the votes. Onlookers watched in rows of chairs that had been set up behind a velvet rope.". Depending on how far away this velvet rope is, I suspect it could be pretty hard to examine those ballots. It's still scrap, there should never be less than 2 people (and those 2 always of different parties, and actually one of every party who is running) viewing a ballot for intent, and all of them should have to agree. I would have thought this was obvious.
Sort, stack and count would only be faster in a one race count. If you've got multiple races, tally is faster. If you so sort stack in multiple races the chance for exchanging a ballot are higher. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 3280
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 2:18 pm: |
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I think it would be faster to sort & stack for one race at a time--and far more accurate than tallying. It's much more focused, easier to observe and to check and to recount.
I bet it would be faster to count the different races sequentially than to tally them all at 1 time. (And I bet it would have major advantages in accuracy as well as speed.) Haven't there been experiments comparing speed and accuracy of sort & count vs tally for multiple races?
Plus, in many cases ballots could be designed to facilitate this--perforations so that all the issues could be separated and counted separately from the federal races and from the local races. |
Nancy Tobi
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ntobi
Post Number: 63
Registered: 01-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 8:43 pm: |
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We have a moderator here in one of the larger hand count towns who conducts his counts in the manner you describe Catherine. He's happy with it. If I can get there to observe in November, I'll let you know what I find out. If someone wants to video good processes, I encourage them to come to NH for both the election and the recounts that follow. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 650
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 6:41 am: |
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Catherine,
Be very careful with these "perforating" types of solutions. Straight party single mark voting must be accomodated and used for all races in a General Election. (many states)
And worse yet, there needs to be the ability to handle a "straight party with a few exceptions" ballot as well. These are hard to do under the best of circumstances with even competent well-trained people. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 3282
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 3:41 pm: |
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Kurt,
While not in time for November, there is theoretically nothing to prevent better regulations/legislation put in place than those that currently exist in a given state. Part of the process of forward movement is figuring out what direction to move in, and what are the perceived range of options. |
