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Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 757
Registered: 01-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 11:49 am: | 
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Has anybody considered that in a tight election (lots of them are tight these days, for one reason or another) that one of the big reasons elections officials may dread scrutiny is that they may have to run the election all over again?
Consider: if anyone gets ballots into the ballot box that don't belong there (and because of poll books, etc. they can tell), and the extra votes could represent the margin of victory or more) what can you then possibly legitimately do, except re-vote? Because you can't tie a vote serial number to a voter, what can you do to show that a serial number should be legitimate that can't be subverted if you don't tie it to the voter? |
Michael W Mather
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Gypsy
Post Number: 76
Registered: 07-2005
Best of Black Box? 
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 6:53 pm: |
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From what I've read or heard about, re-doing an election almost never happens, and then only by Court Order. (am I wrong?)
There may be a lot of reasons. In some cases the reason may be to hide corruption or negligence. In other cases, they are just not used to citizen oversight (forgotten who they work for; which is partly the fault of the citizens). But, I suspect a major reason in many cases is tight budgets; they might have to ask for more money to develop procedures for security, chain of custody, poll worker and voter education, etc. (not to mention to conduct expanded auditing and possible recounts.) They won't get it, unless we citizens demand that proper care be given to this basic function of democracy. |
Tom Sweet
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Tsweet
Post Number: 18
Registered: 06-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 7:57 pm: |
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I never saw any corruption but I have seen mistakes.
Some are:
1. Poll workers casting blank ballots on live machines to demonstrate functionality to voters. This throws the counts off between ballots cast and actual voters, then those interested in investigating the integrity of the election have cause for concern when numbers don't match up.
2. Counties not knowing where their paper ballots are for a few days after the election.
3. Ballots not delivered to polling places, etc
I know many here are concerned with the machines and fraud with them, but the weakest point in the chain is the people. People make mistakes. Often pollworkers get one training class a few weeks before, they forget after it, maybe they did not got to training at all. They are given a book with instructions, troubleshooting steps etc and they never open it. |
Jim Eldon
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Vegsledman
Post Number: 26
Registered: 12-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 8:41 pm: |
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Actually, Brant, the elections have not been tight. Check out the "Dubious Democracy 2005" page of FairVote's website where you'll find this statement: "In each of the four national elections since 1996, more than 98% of incumbents have won, and more than 90% of all races have been won by non-competitive margins of more than 10%."
http://www.fairvote.org/dubdem/
This also provides an answer to Kurt's "what if" question in the BBV Just An Idea thread. The same people would probably get elected because the districting has been rigged to get them elected. The people's choices are limited from the start. Then there's the added influence of the corporate-owned media propaganda machine, etc. The actual voting and vote-counting is the last step in a political game that's pretty thoroughly managed from start to finish. That's why I'm fond of saying that Democracy is still a new idea that hasn't really been tried yet. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 761
Registered: 01-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 5:15 am: |
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Mike said: "In other cases, they are just not used to citizen oversight (forgotten who they work for; which is partly the fault of the citizens)." This is incorrect, everybody works for who pays them and/or controls whether they continue to have a job or not. I said this, here, in as vague a manner as I did in order to make the point that it may be that they're supposed to be acting in the best interest of the public, but they're responsible to some individual or some group of individuals. While you may argue that their first interest should be serving their community, I will agree with you. But if you contend that will override their responsiveness to their boss in most cases, I'd have to say you don't get out much. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 766
Registered: 01-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 5:49 am: |
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Part of the point I was originally trying to make is that completely untraceable ballots placed in a box results in a situation where once you've gotten them into the box, there's no way to separate the ones that have fraudulently entered the box from the ones that belong there. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 767
Registered: 01-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 5:57 am: |
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The other thing that Mike's first post brings out to me is why the hell aren't more elections re-run? The Washington's governor's race comes to mind... |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 522
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 12:04 pm: |
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Brant,
You have opened a good one here. I can tell you from personal experience that according to my elected Board of Elections (also my County Commissioners) that I DID NOT work for the people or the community or "democracy"; I worked FOR THEM PERSONALLY. I was told by my equally "hired" or "appointed" County Administrator that the public could go to hell, my job was to make my elected Commissioners look good, no matter what.
Apparently, I didn't do that to their satisfaction. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 523
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 12:10 pm: |
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Also, very few elections are "re-run" because in many states, that would be a worse outcome, legally, than the "wrong person" winning an election. When statutes and constitutions call for a specific date to be an election, that means that is the ONLY DATE on which that election can be held.
The courts, if necessary, are charged with deciding, to the best of their ability, what it was that the people did on that day. Any time an election would be re-run, it is already a flawed election. If you open a re-vote to people who did not vote the first time, you are injecting a new and different electorate - those who only are voting because the election is close.
If you limit a re-vote to only those who voted in the first election, you will ALWAYS get a shrinkage in actual turnout. Usually, a court will declare a winner rather than order a re-vote.
Re-votes are rare as hen's teeth precisely because courts have traditionally held them to be abominations. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 770
Registered: 01-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 1:47 pm: |
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But, if you know you have false ballots in the system and you can't get them out (no ballot to person connection right) how can you possibly let it stand, and say it's an election where the people got to choose? |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 525
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 2:01 pm: |
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Brant,
Again, I'm not endorsing this, just reporting.
The courts use a standard that the election stands as it is UNLESS it can be shown that it is LIKELY that the putative loser actually won, had the election been held accurately. Remember, I said LIKELY, not POSSIBLE.
That is a really high hurdle to overcome.
In my jurisdiction, in the election after I was gone, over 200 votes were lost due to a programming error. There were there races with margins less than the number of missing votes, but none of those races was in ALL the affected precincts. In three races, it was MATHEMATICALLY POSSIBLE that the putattive winner lost and vice versa. But since it would have required a near shutout in the missing votes, the election was allowed to stand, even with 200+ votes just plain gone. Remember, the standard is "LIKELY". |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 771
Registered: 01-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 2:09 pm: |
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Kurt said: "Also, very few elections are "re-run" because in many states, that would be a worse outcome, legally, than the "wrong person" winning an election. When statutes and constitutions call for a specific date to be an election, that means that is the ONLY DATE on which that election can be held." I don't think this is right, Kurt, because of the following: say your the elections director and say circumstances beyond your control stop you from having your election (fire, tornadoes, any natural disaster) force you to postpone your election, how can you in any way be liable or held at fault?
So, I'm positing that, if you're an election official using what people have either required you to use or given you their contractual word that what their giving you to use for voting in an election is fit to use in an election and it isn't (and your, or your superiors' vetting of the equipment was done with all due diligence that's under your control) then you can't be held accountable for having to postpone it, or as in the above posts, run it again. This would be really the only protection that the untraceable ballot has in the ballot box, that on finding that the election had been corrupted, you would run the corrupted part over again. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 527
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 6:39 pm: |
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Brant,
Especially in federal election years, the Constitution dictates Election Day. It would take an unbelievable catastrophe to postpone a federal election. When I say unbelievable catastrophe, I mean something worse than 9/11/01 (Primary Day in NY), or Katrina. Neither of those events impacted a federal election, just local ones. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 773
Registered: 01-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 8:39 pm: |
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So, you're telling me that in NYC they did the primary ANYWAY on 9/11/01? That's just poor judgement! |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 529
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 9:01 pm: |
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No, no, they did postpone the Primary and redid it later, because there was no constitutional mandate for that date. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 775
Registered: 01-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 4:26 am: |
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If there was any sort of election that was to be done in New Orleans during Katrina, it would certainly have been postponed, don't you think? And if it was thought that many people hadn't been able to vote because of the disaster, something would have been done, wouldn't it? |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 531
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 5:21 am: |
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For a local election, yes. But not for a federal election.
There was a postponed mayoral election in N.O. It was eventually held even though hundreds of thousands were still displaced. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 3167
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 5:32 am: |
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For a federal election couldn't they vote in a different precinct using a provisional ballot, under conditions such as Katrina or similar emergency?
Though I don't see how they could vote if they were temporarily in a different state from where they were registered, particularly if government offices were affected in ways that made it impossible to send out absentee ballots and/or if there was little or no advance warning.
(Is anyone waking up to the fact that an H5N1 pandemic could present just these types of conditions? The state of Virginia is making plans for lengthy quarrantine periods (e.g. 6 weeks IIRC). A U.S. government website for pandemic preparation advises people to have mechanical can openers on hand. Read between the lines: no electricity. Even if an election were held in these conditions there might not be any power for the machines. And if there's a quarrantine election offices might not be able to function at all.)
Doesn't the Constitution have any flexibility regarding federal elections? If not, at some point they might have to come up with something. (Or would a signing statement do the job?) If such a decision were made for political advantage, that would not be right. If there were a genuine reason--Katrina-style disaster on a bigger scale, or widespread pandemic with a statewide quarrantine--then this would have to be addressed somehow or another. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 778
Registered: 01-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 12:17 pm: |
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Catherine, I'm with you, this seems to have never been de-Murphied after there have been many 'oh sh*t!" moments.
Then you'll be back to electronically transmitted results because there's no risk of infection! |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 3169
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 12:35 pm: |
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I wonder what kind of FOIA request would be needed to find out what contingency plans had been made in relation to holding elections in the event of a national emergency such as a pandemic.
The US gov't websites show what to do for your family and your business (though they are not exactly publicizing these websites to anyone), but I haven't yet seen anything relating to contingency planning for elections |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 3170
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 12:37 pm: |
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How far can the government's powers be extended if a national state of emergency is declared? I think it's extremely broad IIRC. Surely they could suspend elections at will in such a scenario. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 3171
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 12:38 pm: |
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In fact I think I've seen such a possibility mentioned as a way the present government might try to remain in power. |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 5548
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 7:29 am: |
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You'll find some of those public records from the spring and summer of 2004 in our Document Archive -- unfortunately, they are scattered among a huge stash no one has had time to index.
It is in "Correspondence" 3,000 pages ... This contains many links to pdf files, and within those are conversations between secretaries of state about cancelling the election due to terrorism. They were disappointed in Forest de Soaries, then head of the EAC, because he told them they couldn't cancel the election over a threat. They were trying to find a way to circumvent that decision.
This Tool Kit is a Declaration of Independence for Citizens:
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/toolkit.pdf
- It's time for you to recognize your own power.
- You don't need us.
- You don't have to find someone to follow.
- Pick any module. Pick a single action in it. See it to its completion.
- You've just opened the door to an unexpected evolution.
"Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." -– Declaration of Independence
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Jerry Lobdill
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Jerry_lobdill
Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 7:58 am: |
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Bev,
Please contact me at my email address. I cannot seem to find a way to send you a private email. |
