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"WATCH LIST"
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Kevin R OBrien
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Desdinova58
Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 1, 2006 - 9:54 pm: | 
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The only way I can think of to keep these predetermined boxes from electing whoever they are told to is simply-To get Americans to refuse to Vote untill the elections are fair and impartial again,or Whats the use in Voting? |
Kathleen Wynne
Moderator
Username: Admin_ii
Post Number: 467
Registered: 08-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 6:52 am: |
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Kevin,
The voting process itself provides evidence. The kind of evidence necessary to be able to make our case to the country that the voting process at every stage is totally broken and must be changed.
The more people that vote, the better, because it makes it easier for us to compile hard evidence that will open the door to real change. In fact, I urge you to check out the BBV's Citizen Tool Kit To Take Back Our Elections, found on the home page, and check out the "Hard Evidence" Modules and see how this can be done. Consider taking one of those actions in your own community. By taking just one of these actions, you will make a bigger difference in bringing about the kind of change you are talking about than not voting will. Non-action has never been a solution, never has been and never will be.
Besides, don't you think it would be next to impossible to stop everyone from voting, so the decision of who would represent the majority of us would be left up to a few? Imagine what that would be like. It would put us in an even worse predicament, if that's possible, than we're in now.
Kathleen
(Message edited by admin_ii on August 02, 2006)
* * * * *
"We're counting ALL the votes. Get over it."
(-- Nancy Tobi, Democracy for New Hampshire)
Be part of the solution: Please sign up for the NATIONAL HAND COUNT REGISTRY: Go to Home Page - Hand Count Registry is right above lead story
Make November elections the biggest evidence gathering action ever. EVIDENCE = videotape, audiotape and photos. Come prepared. This time, focus on the COUNTING not just the voting.
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Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 5493
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 8:18 am: |
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Kevin, if you are talking about taking an ACTION, of convincing people not to vote, as some sort of a protest, that's a start. But if you have enough energy to do that, I encourage you to select one of the very constructive actions from the Citizen's Tool Kit to Take Back Elections:
http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/1954/36341.html
Convincing people to engage in non-action is not the recipe for the kind of change we want, I'm afraid. Instead, I recommend focusing your energy in a direction that we KNOW, from past experience, will create meaningful change!
It's up to us to manage our government. Instead of protesting against it, step in and take actions that exert control over it. The actions in the Tool Kit are designed to help you control your government, not the other way around.
By the way, a word about the talking point I've been hearing for years now, that if we bring the problems with elections into the open people won't vote (Kevin didn't say that, so I'm hijacking the message a bit here):
That is a dangerous propaganda point that has prevented many of the progressive and left-leaning groups from confronting the real issues. Next time you hear it, call it what it is: propaganda designed to prevent progressive-leaning groups from confronting (or even discussing!) the real issues.
* * * * *
"Regardless of size, just 1-3 people do all the work in any group. Better to have 10 groups of 10 people than one group with 100 people. That way, at least 10 people will get things done."
(-- John Brakey, an Arizona citizen)
You own your government, not the other way around. This is your task: Pick 1 thing and just DO IT. Then lead, mentor or organize 9 people to do the same thing.
Citizen Tool Kit to Take Back Elections:
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/toolkit.pdf
Begins 8/1/06
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Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 747
Registered: 01-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, August 7, 2006 - 4:47 am: |
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Bev said: "Next time you hear it, call it what it is: propaganda designed to prevent progressive-leaning groups from confronting (or even discussing!) the real issues". Saying this could be unfortunate for several reasons (depending on your audience):
It is, to some degree, true, and many people think propaganda must be false (to be propaganda),
It sidesteps that the people that this statement may keep from voting are honest, concerned citizens, just the people anybody wants voting (whether we'd agree with how they vote or not),
(I could be wrong here, but) I suspect that it has really kept moderates of all parties from being involved in the voting reform movement.
It isn't propaganda to stop left-leaning progressives from discussing it, it's intended to stop anybody from discussing it. This works with everybody.
Calling anything propaganda that someone actually believes is much more likely to harden their position than soften it. You have to meet this head-on with the idea that while elections may be rigged (whether they are or not) those honest, concerned peoples' ballots may not count, or not be counted the way they were cast. Allow its hearing, then ask if people would want a 'live-and-let-live' policy if they had cancer? Then bring up that if you told the patient they had cancer, they might think they're not well! Tell them as citizens we should start considering it a duty to be honest with each other. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 3148
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, August 7, 2006 - 5:08 am: |
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But the fact that many people sincerely believe it's true (that if you tell people about the problems with our election systems, they might not vote) is the result of the propaganda. Repeat misinformation often enough and people genuinely start to believe that it is true. So ignoring the misinformation is probably not the solution.
You're right that it is important how we make our points, and I'm with you all the way that we need to put things in such a way that people of all political persuasions can relate to it without becoming defensive.
(Message edited by Catherine_a on August 07, 2006) |
Dan Oetting
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Dan_oetting
Post Number: 20
Registered: 07-2006
Best of Black Box? 
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, August 7, 2006 - 9:38 am: |
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It is imperative that the problems with the election system be openly discussed and fixed. Voting is the safest form of political protest. When this avenue is taken away from the people the situation gets ugly. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 749
Registered: 01-2005
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, August 7, 2006 - 11:22 am: |
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Thanks, Catherine, but has anyone at least polled to prove that the assertion is or isn't true? I'm not saying it is or isn't, I've just seen no one assert hard evidence either way.
I think the most cogent argument to be made is even if it is true (it causes some people not to vote), as long as you have reason to doubt some unknown quantity of ballots are being counted correctly, how can you tell which of the 2 factors is having more of an effect until you investigate the illegal one? I would think this is the best stopper for this, wouldn't you? |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 519
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 8, 2006 - 11:26 am: |
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Brant,
This is one argument that I have spent a lot of time thinking about, and I don't have any answers.
It seems that for those who are dead set convinced that elections are hacked and invalid and predetermined by some nefarious force, that not voting would be at least a reasonable result. In fact it may defy logic to vote, if one truly believes that it is a futile act.
Now that's MILES away from saying that for people who believe that elections are "hackable" or those who say that there is no way to know whether an election has been hacked or not. It seems that voting in that case makes sense, just in case an election is honest.
But I keep asking myself this "what if" question, especially for those who view this as a R vs. D, or progressive vs. neocon issue. "What if everyone eventually gets what they want, hand counted paper, 100% paper counts off of machines, whatever it is that will make them believe the elections are secure, what if Republicans still keep winning national elections? Then what?"
I mean, I think that there are hundreds of thousands or millions of people who believe that if we could just get an honest election, then progressive Democrats would win almost all the time. I'm just not buying it, and I don't know if the people who DO believe that have prepared themselves for that possibility.
For me, I truly believe that on balance, this is still genuinely a conservative leaning country, and while I acknowledge that these machines are inscure, I think on balance, the winners are who the winners are, with a few exceptions. |
Jo Anne Karasek
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Jo_anne_karasek
Post Number: 156
Registered: 08-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 8, 2006 - 12:31 pm: |
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It's O.K. that Republicans win national elections, just not the neocons which the large majority of the public wants out. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 3151
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 8, 2006 - 1:27 pm: |
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Kurt,
To me what matters is that the winners of elections be the peoples' choice. That's what this is all about. |
Dan Oetting
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Dan_oetting
Post Number: 23
Registered: 07-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 8, 2006 - 11:43 pm: |
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If elections are dishonest, the party in power stays in power. If elections are honest then there is a chance that power can shift to the other party and when power shifts there is a chance that prior dishonest acts can be discovered. The prospect of an open honest election helps keep the politicians honest. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 753
Registered: 01-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 4:56 am: |
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Dan has said this very well, I think. With the level of disinterest that most people show for what's being done by their legislatures and elected officials, they fear the public's opinion or decisions once a term. If the elections are sufficiently crooked that fear (which requires subservience) shifts away from us entirely, then all the PR that is done by incumbents toward the public is the dissembling done by a blackmailer and his victims or a criminal and his accomplices toward the unaware public, to maintain the status quo.
No, the reason to vote your side of an issue when you think voting is crooked is to create polling numbers that make the rigged election look blatantly, clearly false (having voted also, to validate those polling numbers).
And with a static, attackable voting structure (speaking in tactical parlance, same people counting election after election, machines probably underguarded, ballot memory cards in taxis, etc.) our only defense may be to round up bi-partisan participation to do exit polling, everywhere.
I think that the Mexicans who back AMLO know they got screwed and are getting ready to riot; would that we had that kind of interest here. |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 5531
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 4:58 am: |
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I would amend Dan's comments to say that in the current system, it's a custody battle. Whoever has custody of the machines owns the election, should they choose to.
That means going to anyone from either party if they were elected on the machines, and asking them to get all the votes counted in public, is a very iffy proposition.
I contend that most machines and most elections are NOT manipulated, but some certainly are, and some certainly have insiders do it. That's just common sense. The problem is, we can't know WHICH ones are.
The machines are but one arrow in the quiver, when it comes to manipulating elections. The attack tree presentation provides many of the other methods. Most likely, to tamper with a federal election, anything that works will be used and that will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
A summary of the attack tree presentation can be found here: http://www.blackboxvoting.org/toolkit-presentation.pdf
This is meant to be a slide show presentation, which is why it has big type size, pictures etc. It may appear to "hang" while downloading -- that's because it is a large file, and adobe acrobat doesn't give good status messages while downloading on some browsers. Go get a cup of coffee while downloading, or at least, be patient.
* * * * *
"Regardless of size, just 1-3 people do all the work in any group. Better to have 10 groups of 10 people than one group with 100 people. That way, at least 10 people will get things done."
(-- John Brakey, an Arizona citizen)
You own your government, not the other way around. This is your task: Pick 1 thing and just DO IT. Then lead, mentor or organize 9 people to do the same thing.
Citizen Tool Kit to Take Back Elections:
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/toolkit.pdf
Begins 8/1/06
|
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 754
Registered: 01-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 5:05 am: |
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Also, Kurt, I don't think that the progressives have gotten a fair hearing. Since the Republicans have bought up the major media in this country there hasn't been anything approaching equal time anymore for the Democrats. And when the Democrats speak these days few of them are willing to say anything very progressive. The progressives want a bunch of things that I think most Americans want: a decent minimum wage, to stop exporting jobs overseas, decent protection from a burgeoning, civil-rights limiting federal government, government competency, decent schools, limits to corporate influence in government. You may disagree with their methods, but it's damn hard to disagree with their goals. |
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