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"WATCH LIST"
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| (US) 7/06 - A seemingly simple questi... |
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Steve McKenney
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Crashball
Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 5:41 am: | 
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A simple question I can't figure out is "how?". How is all this even an issue? These voting machines have huge flaws, the companies manufacturing them is in the administrations pocket, and none of them want paper trails...how can this still be sneaking in to our communities? Microsoft couldn't get away with not patching their operating systems! Yet voting machines....the only explaination that makes sense to me is that people are ignoring it and don't care...but that can't be entirely true, especially here. It has been in the news for years, yet the machines are no more secure and still showing up to tally our elections. How is this happening?!? |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 473
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 10:02 am: |
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Steve,
This is a controversial post, I know.
HAVA mandates were never about "secure" or "transparent" elections. They were about "accessibility" first and foremost. The disabled community had been lobbying for electronic voting for most of two decades. They felt that paper and punchcards and levers presented too many obstacles for them, along with accessibility to the polling places themselves.
There were organizations like the Pittsburgh-based Disabilities Law Project that had started filing and threatening to file lawsuits all over the place to gain better accessibility to voting. That, along with the Florida 2000 controversy surrounding overvotes and undervotes (see even Conyers' complaints after 2000 - they were all about undervotes, overvotes, and accessibility, NOT security), led to a "consensus" in Congress that the answer to all our problems lay in electronic voting machines. They do eliminate overvotes. They can be programmed to warn about undervotes, and most do quite annoyingly well (for someone who INTENDS to undervote an office). And they present fewer obstacles to more disabilities than most other solutions.
So in the fall of 2002, DRE's looked to the whole Congress as the answer to all our problems.
One problem. Security. It had been virtually left out of the decision making process. Now it's the 800 pound gorilla in the living room, and no consensus is forming in Congress as to whether the gorilla exists, and what to do about it if it does.
They're still patting themselves on the back about eliminating overvotes. |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 5446
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 6:05 pm: |
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Actually, Kurt, HAVA was about profits for manufacturers, first and foremost. It was conceived of, lobbied for, and back-room-dealed in by vendors and procurement agencies.
They exploited the disabled and the civil rights community to do so.
The group that actually did the maneuvering included cash-happy Steny Hoyer (D-MD) and Abramoff buddy Bob Ney (R-OH) and Lockheed Martin, Accenture, VoteHere, Northrup Grumman and others. Note the heavy presence of defense wolves pushing HAVA through the sheep in congress.
* * * * *
"We're counting the votes. Get over it."
Be part of the solution: Please sign up for the NATIONAL HAND COUNT REGISTRY: Go to Home Page - Hand Count Registry is right above lead story
Make November elections the biggest evidence gathering action ever. EVIDENCE = videotape, audiotape and photos. Come prepared. This time, focus on the COUNTING not just the voting.
|
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 480
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 7:11 pm: |
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Bev,
There's more than enough blame for Senators Dodd (D-CT), and McConnell (R-KY), too.
Dodd was especially in love with DRE's. McConnell can be blamed for all this voter ID requirement stuff. |
Tom Melancon
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Podman386
Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:05 am: |
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I share Steve M.'s frustration. I live in Seattle, and when I park downtown, I put my ATM card in a machine, it contacts my bank in about 30 seconds and spits out a parking permit that also acts as a receipt. Obviously we have the technology available, when MILLIONS of ATM transactions occur every day without a hitch. I for one am contacting every congressperson and senator in the country and challenging them with making fair elections their top priority, because our entire system of government is threatened if we don't fix the voting system. |
Steve McKenney
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Crashball
Post Number: 2
Registered: 07-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 5:40 am: |
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So basically everyone is just ignoring the security issues because while it fixes voting mistakes, it can potentailly cause many more "unknown" (unknown as in oops, we couldn't have known the box was tampered with) issues? Ignoring the elephant in the room? It seems like the only reason they would not be pushing for security is because they plan on fudging votes. If this were some secret CIA/FBI database, or bank's money were at stake, there is no way they would allow equipment with huge security holes. I'd like to see them try and put wireless cards in ATMs and see how secure they think it would be for them. |
Jo Anne Karasek
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Jo_anne_karasek
Post Number: 142
Registered: 08-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 7:09 am: |
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The real reason that the security issues are not causing an uproar is because the voters are somewhere between being apathetic and completely discouraged about voting.
They have been beaten over the head about voting, registration, voting machines, provisional votes, change of precincts, etc. to the point that they are in despair about ever getting it done right. |
Steve McKenney
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Crashball
Post Number: 3
Registered: 07-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 11:08 am: |
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sad indeed. It is all that has been going on since Bush has been elected that has been making me a lot more aware and involved than ever before (granted i am still pretty young at 28), rather than lying down and playing dead. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 488
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 2:33 pm: |
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No Steve,
No one is ignoring this issue. There simply are many otherwise smart people who do not believe that tampering with an election is plausible. There is NEAR 100% consensus among those who have thoroughly studied the issue that it is POSSIBLE. (That leaves out those who haven't studied it at all - and why does ANYONE care what they think?)
There is also the very real question of how best to fix this problem. There is more than a little disagreement about that, even some here on BBV. There is a general consensus around paper ballots hand counted, but not much agreement on how to get there from where we are. The sheer size of this nation's electoral infrastructure would boggle most people's minds. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 3097
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 3:04 pm: |
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Jim March made some of the most helpful suggestions I've seen about how to get "there" (wherever "there" is in any individual's mind) from here.
He spoke about strategically targeting several counties that are close to one another, and working on getting regulations changed at that level. Once there is enough local awareness and support, then one is well-positioned to influence what happens at the state level.
He has seen this strategy work successfully in other contexts, and I believe it is a sound suggestion that comes from the wisdom of practical experience.
I'm sure there are other ways to approach this, but this way speaks to the power of what individuals can do in their own local area, and when several local areas mutually support one another it increases their success rate. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 490
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 12:59 pm: |
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Catherine,
Here's where it sometimes gets stupid. While a lot of discretion in elections is at the local level in many states, sometimes state law needs to be changed, too.
Think of it as a "mother, may I" sort of thing. The state law defines what is permitted, and then the local officials choose from that menu of allowed solutions. In some places, there is state legislation needed. In others, all that is needed is to convince the local officials to choose an option that already exists in law.
It is absolutely indispensible to know the local facts and law. This can get REALLY REALLY frustrating for a lot of activists who view this on a national scale. A lot of people mistakenly believe that if you could just get the right bill passed in Congress, the problem's solved.
If only... |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 3101
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 1:37 pm: |
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Kurt:
quote:It is absolutely indispensible to know the local facts and law.
This is a great suggestion for anyone interested in election reform. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 731
Registered: 01-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 4:56 am: |
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Kurt said: "There is NEAR 100% consensus among those who have thoroughly studied the issue that it is POSSIBLE. (That leaves out those who haven't studied it at all - and why does ANYONE care what they think?)" It's simple, because they're the ones that decide if anything gets done about it (legislators, judges, cops, prosecuting attorneys). |
Kathleen Wynne
Moderator
Username: Admin_ii
Post Number: 465
Registered: 08-2005
Best of Black Box? 
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 5:20 pm: |
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Kurt,
Have you seen this website? http://www.democracyfornewhampshire.com/
Take a look on the left-hand side of their homepage and review their hand book on successful hand count protocols. They've also included videos of local hand counts in the 2004 election and a state recount in 2004 that shows this being done in an orderly, organized, manageable way. Also, a point not only New Englanders appreciate very well, but the rest of the country too (especially during these difficult economic times), hand counts are extremely "cost effective" and will save the taxpayers literally millions.
IMO, Nancy Tobi of DFNH and Sharona Merel and Nancy White of the National Ballot Integrity Project are doing important work in developing these hand count procedures at the grassroots level. I'm betting on their starting a ripple effect in awareness that will evolve into a tidal wave of approval by the American people that hand counts at the precinct level is not only the best way to preserve the integrity of our votes, it's the most basic, logical solution because everyone can understand it, we don't need an expert to explain it to us and it actually requires real citizen oversight. IMO, it's the only way for citizens to take back our elections.
What will it take for people to recognize that these machines can't be trusted nor the experts who certified them?
Kathleen
(Message edited by admin_ii on July 31, 2006)
* * * * *
"We're counting ALL the votes. Get over it."
(-- Nancy Tobi, Democracy for New Hampshire)
Be part of the solution: Please sign up for the NATIONAL HAND COUNT REGISTRY: Go to Home Page - Hand Count Registry is right above lead story
Make November elections the biggest evidence gathering action ever. EVIDENCE = videotape, audiotape and photos. Come prepared. This time, focus on the COUNTING not just the voting.
|
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 501
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 9:39 pm: |
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Kathleen,
I've now read that.
Did you see that Maine has relented to the USDOJ and is now putting electronic devices in precincts where only hand counted paper ballots had been until now. The other leg of the settlement had to do with creating a statewide registry, which has apparently not happened in Maine.
We all admire these locales where ALL balloting has been paper ballots hand counted, but they're not going to be allowed to stay that way, because of HAVA's disability access provisions. USDOJ is starting to sue over this. The best that can be hoped for is AutoMarks to mark what are intended to be opscan ballots, which can then be tallied by hand, IF they can get around the overvote prevention stuff. |
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