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| (US) 5/06 - Mr. Bush, We Know What Yo... |
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Reggie Abraham
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Shadow7
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 9:36 pm: | 
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{b}Mr. Bush, We Know What You Did That Summer ! - September 11th, 2001{/b}
There are two groups of people in this world: those who believe the official explanation of the events of September 11th, 2001, and those who have examined the evidence and realize that the official version of events is totally unbelievable.
An Open Letter to: Mr. George W. Bush, Mr. Richard Cheney, Members of PNAC and your supporting cast:
Guess what? WE KNOW WHAT YOU DID THAT SUMMER - that long ago time of innocence before the events of September 11th, 2001. We know what you did, and the game is over - even though you don’t yet know it.. The work of the independent 9/11 researchers is paying off. The evidence is steamrolling through the information super highway and is now creeping into the clogged arteries of the mainstream media. We may not know every detail and we may not agree on your individual motives, but two facts are now irrefutable: the official story of what happened on September 11th is not true and you were involved.
Somebody, somewhere does not like you guys anymore. Somebody, somewhere has given the corporate media the OK to open the one topic that has been totally verboten up till now. Somebody, somewhere has made it permissible for hints to be dropped into the public arena.. Those hints - which focus on the reasonable suspicion that has been raised about the attacks of 9/11 - have been well received. The cover-up is disintegrating slowly but surely.
Books and documentaries are now trickling into the awareness of the general population. That trickle is turning into a steady flow that will increase every time a new set of eyes is opened to the evidence that has been amassed. Until now, the mainstream media have been the hull of the vessel that has kept the official conspiracy theory afloat. But now, for the first time, that vessel is sinking under the weight of its own lies. At this very moment, because of the distortions and secrets of the official version of 9/11, you all are beginning to drown in your own pool of lies.
Understand that this is not a case of people having different opinions as to what happened that day. This is a terribly serious situation in which some people accepted your version of 9/11 because you frightened them into doing so. They believed everything you said without asking for any corroborating evidence because you asked them to take your word as the Gospel truth. But other people looked at what you told them and began to ask common sense questions about the holes you left in the official story. They could not understand why you refused to allow a bipartisan, impartial investigation into the events of that day. They realized that the Kean Commission, formed a year after the attacks, was NOT charged with finding out what really happened. They realized that this commission was there to document your official story, regardless of how it conflicted with the evidence that had been unearthed. This second group refused to sit back and ignore what was being revealed by scholars and other experts among them, and they continued investigating this most fateful day for themselves.
Keep in mind the large majority of Americans were completely unaware there were any questions at all being raised about your official story. You guys did a yeoman’s job of getting the corporate media to do your dirty work. You got them to repeatedly report the bogus elements of the story you wanted us to accept. They did that for the better part of four and a half years, but now their shell game is over because they are no longer relevant. The independent 9/11 Truth community has bypassed your conduits to the public. Finally, researchers, authors, scientists, film makers and real journalists have assumed the role of protecting our nation from enemies domestic and it is only a matter of time before your little story is all but a bloodstain on the history files of the ruling elite.
Much more in full blog, and a link to a FREE viewing of LOOSE CHANGE 2 - the documentary that will change you forever...!
http://tvnewslies.org/blog/?p=351
} |
Pat Vesely
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Pat_vesely
Post Number: 182
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 9:57 pm: |
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Hi Reggie, welcome to Black Box Voting.org.
You're welcome to post here but please keep the topics you choose to post about election related. This is a non partisan organization after all. Posts like this really have no place on this site.
There are plenty of partisan liberal web sites where this would be much better suited.
Thanks for your cooperation and understanding.
Pat A. Vesely ;-) |
V. Kurt Bellman
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 47
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 5:14 am: |
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Thank you, Pat.
This is what has always been troubling about this and other election reform sites for me. People with agendas like the above poster believe that their agenda and election reform are one and the same. I know it is an "ad hominem" fallacy to judge a movement by the caliber of its "friends", but WHEW, why does election reform seem to attract so much of the "fringe" at times? It is discouraging to me.
Election reform is for conservatives, too. No...REALLY! |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 4184
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? 
Votes: 3 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 8:18 am: |
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Yes, Kurt -- people don't realize how many Republicans and Libertarians do support this issue.
In fact, the first person who helped me on this was a Republican, Jack Maples, who writes books about the civil war era.
And one of the first people to openly challenge Diebold, putting the rig-a-vote CD on his web site and daring Diebold to come and get him, was a Republican, Jim March.
One of the most courageous elections officials in the country, Bruce Funk, is a Republican.
And Libertarians? They've been on this issue from jump, way back to 2003.
One of the things we ask for when people join here is political affiliation. A reason for that is that there are election reform-related actions that must be done by specific parties -- for example, as Pat pointed out to me earlier, if volunteering to hand count you have to provide your affiliation because they want to have both parties represented in that process.
I was looking at the data with our BBV memberships. There was a surge of Democrats registering in connection with the 2004 election, but we also have a healthy number of Republicans, LOTS of Libertarians, and I think the number of Independents is close to (or may even exceed) the number of Democrats.
BBV has three investigators -- Kathleen Wynne (Dem); me (Ind) Jim March (Rep)
The first two elections officials to come forward and have their systems independently tested with public results were Ion Sancho (Dem) and Bruce Funk (Rep)
People just badly, desperately want to frame this issue in terms of Democrats vs. Republicans, but as you correctly pointed out elsewhere here Kurt, the core issues in election reform were 30 years in the making and caused by citizens (and I include myself in this) who were asleep at the wheel.
Now we're learning about our own system, which we blithely ignored for decades, and now that we've been pouring sunshine on it, what we're seeing feels like watching a car wreck.
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Kathleen Wynne
Moderator
Username: Admin_ii
Post Number: 254
Registered: 08-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 9:12 am: |
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Bev,
Well...I haven't mentioned this to you yet, but I used to be a Dem. I'm so disgusted with both parties' actions toward those they supposedly represent, that I've decided to be independent of any party affiliation.
I think my "evolution" came as a result of working with this non-partisan organization.
Since, politics in general seems to have been the biggest obstacle in our fight to achieve meaningful election reform, I wanted to free myself from that handicap.
Kathleen
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
TRIPLE PROTECTION FOR ELECTION 2006 - STARTING NOW:
(1) Use Freedom of Information, public records requests ("All American Paper Chase")
(2) Try Dumpster Diving for Democracy
(3) Candid America Project - Don't leave home without your camcorder
HOW TO DO IT: http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/6/6.html
|
Bruce Sims
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ubetchaiam
Post Number: 745
Registered: 06-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 10:08 am: |
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Kathleen, why don't you become a 'Green'? 
Greens,also, have been involved with the issue of voting/election reform for quite awhile. |
Pat Vesely
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Pat_vesely
Post Number: 184
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 10:19 am: |
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Hi Kurt, I've been meaning to check in on your other threads and have been following them very closely. You've made a number of very valid points that most people don't seem to understand. Political 'blinders' will do that to you.
I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to post here and apologize for some of the rude remarks you've encountered. Remarks like those and posts like the one above are the exceptions rather than the rule around here. We do our best to try and stay on top of what gets posted here and keep it focused on election related issues. We also try to encourage people to attack the issues rather than each other. "Don't berate, educate!"
It's hard for some to get used to the concept that this site is unlike most 'partisan' political 'blogs' and forums. This is a civil rights issue shared by all Americans regardless of their political ideology, and as such, all of our voices have a right to be heard in developing ways to best protect our right to have our votes counted as cast. There may be many paths to reaching that goal but there is only that goal in the end.
For the record, I'm a lifelong liberal Democrat who feels that at this point in time, both major parties are out of control and have perfected a game of sorts. They no longer represent 'we, the people', rather, they use certain issues to keep us fighting amongst our selves and supporting them only because of their declared party affiliation.
Pat A. Vesely ;-) |
V. Kurt Bellman
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 57
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 11:08 am: |
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Pat,
For what it's worth. I used to be a staunch Republican (came of real political age during Reagan). Never cared much for W. Still don't.
What four years as an election administrator taught me is almost all politicians suffer from the same disease - an ego out of proportion with its justification.
Politicians look S-O-O-O-O much worse the closer you get to them, and in election admin you get very uncomfortably close to them.
At this point in my life, I'm an R mostly because where I live the R primaries are usually more contested. I changed 4 times while I was an E.D., because the forms were right there. Depended on which primary I wanted to vote in. I switched once to vote for Gov. Rendell in the 2002 D primary, 'cuz I didn't like Casey. Now Casey's facing Santorum this fall, and I don't like either one much. Oh well.
By the way. Give the Greens their "props" on election reform. They were first to the issue here. I just wish it didn't come out of a socialist-sounding hatred of all corporations. Sounds a little shrill, and discourages possible converts, IMHO. |
Linda Jean Edwards
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Pupmunchkin
Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 12:08 pm: |
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I for one do not feel that the post regarding questions about 9/11 is "on the fringe." Most thinking people have expressed concerns about the actual course of events leading up to and after Sept.11th.That is all I have to say about that subject, and it is a subject for a different blog.
My concern is about Black Box Voting itself. I'm certain that many Republicans are concerned about voter disenfranchisement as well as election reform. However, there is an elephant in the living room here at BBV. How can anyone discuss election fraud or reform in this country with a straight face and state that this is a non partisan issue? The Republicans have in my opinion, stolen two presidential elections and perhaps other state and local elections as well.
Additionally, I have remained a Democrat because my Senators, Boxer and Feinstein and Representative Woolsey do appear to at least care about the highly visible corruption of certain Republican lawmakers, although Feinstein has been a disappointment. Both major political parties are NOT the same, and it is a grave mistake to think so, even though most elected Democrats aren't acting like Democrats for the most part. Does anyone really believe that this country would be in the dismal state it is in if the Democratic party had more equal representation in Congress as well as the House, instead of unchecked Republican power? That may change this fall in the 2006 elections, and that was the reason I became interested in BBV in the first place. Looks like the issue of stolen elections and voter disenfranchisement, which allows Republicans to continue their stranglehold on our government is not a concern of BBV. My mistake. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 59
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 12:36 pm: |
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Linda,
I care passionately that elections are being surrendered to unsecure systems, but do not accept the premise that the 2004 election was in any way stolen. I believe 2000 was decided other than how the people intended. "Stolen" is a word too strong for the events. "Gotten wrong" is more accurate.
I've covered this in previous postings. There simply are too many professionals among Democrats that have, to MY PERSONAL SATISFACTION (you're entitled to disagree), debunked the 2004 stolen election charge.
Exit polls are rapidly losing credibility world wide. They got Italy wrong. They got the Palestinian Authority wrong. They got 2004 wrong here. The myth is out there that exit polls are somehow infallible. Rubbish!
I know professional pollsters personally. My best friend in the whole wide world worked as a professional pollster. Edison Mitofsky blew the exit polls due to improper sampling of precincts, poor training and screening of enumerators, making the mistake of having the enumerators wear shirts bearing the logos of the major networks, for cryin' out loud (something that for Conservatives is like waving a red flag to a bull), and allowing their enumerators to fudge from the strict sampling requiremets at the polls, and allowing them to not be at each selected poll all day. (I can personally attest to that. I know precisely which three polls they used in my county.)
I don't need to read blogs to know that. I know that by talking to other professionals personally in the polling field.
Now I know that this all runs counter to what most here believe. I GET THAT! But I'm a big boy, and the truth, for me, is not up to a popular vote of the other visitors of whatever board I visit.
I'm sorry if that upsets you. I'm NEVER going to agree with you on this one. I'm okay with that. You need to be, too. It needs to be enough that while I don't agree that the 2004 election was stolen, that elections are now emminently stealable, and I don't like it! |
ed hill
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ed_hill
Post Number: 121
Registered: 03-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 2:25 pm: |
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hello kurt
glad that we can agree to disagree. i'd like to feel this includes agreeing not to characterize each other as fringe lunatics.
i've more than a little experience with computing and find the idea of our democracy resting upon these systems idiotic.
curious as to your opinion of the crumpled ballot protest.
what if some 20 to 30 percent or more of the registered voters in your district threatened to crumple their ballots specifically to prevent machine counting.
assuming there were also volunteers enough to cover the hand counting.
now ignoring for the moment the unlikely nature of this actually happening. what would the result be of a survey promising those numbers following such a course on election day?
regards
ed |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 4191
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 2:54 pm: |
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For Linda,
Welcome to Black Box Voting. I hear you loud and clear. However, it's so very important to differentiate between the party and the people.
Integrity is not a partisan trait, especially when we are talking about the many individual citizens that make up the United States of America. What political party operatives do would gag a horse, but most people are just trying to go about their daily lives as decent citizens. Most people are truly decent.
One more thing: I urge you to consider the local nature of many election integrity problems. When you break it down to local, you see the stereotypes disintegrate. Local politics controls a lot of money. Just think land use, zoning, construction development. Those positions go to whomever local party politics can get into place, and the positions of commissioner, county supervisor, alderman and county council are the traditional targets for graft. When you start looking into the nature of election tampering on a county level, you see that this is more complex than party line presidential politics.
We welcome you here, and look forward to further dialog.
Bev Harris |
Linda Franz
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Linda_franz
Post Number: 244
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 3:53 pm: |
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For what it's worth, I'm an Independent.
The sorry state of our elections at this time is due to the failings of BOTH parties and ourselves.
If appearances point to one particular party, keep in mind it took the other one allowing it to get that way.
What you have is an electoral system so wide open that it would allow theft. Proof of theft may or may not come about because of investigations. But those investigations and the problems they unearth will help improve our system of elections and hopefully, put real people back in charge through an open, transparent, citizen involved system.
I listened to a former journalist on another topic a while back. He could appreciate the people who KNEW something was done intentionally, but the proof of that intent wasn't there, for him. As a journalist, he is right. You have to go with what you have and like the voting issue, what he had already was very damning to certain government agencies.
If and when proof is produced of something other than incompetentcy and CYA, he's ready to go there. But he won't lose his credibilty a la Dan Rather. No way does he want his issue to be lost in the kind of spin that happened there.
Same with the voting issue. If it goes there, it goes there. Meanwhile, there has been a great deal of light shed on a process that needs transparency and citizen oversight.
Thanks for your passion and concern. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 60
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 3:56 pm: |
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Ed,
I'll plead to using "fringe". I didn't go to "lunatic". I might have thought it privately...No, I'm KIDDING! I have a sick SOH.
But I will add this, which is actually obvious, if you think about it. We all live in places that have differing norms of political thought. I'm talking about our lives in "meat space", rather than "cyberspace". Where I live, in what many New Yorkers or Californians might consider "fly over country", beliefs such as Reggie's or Linda's above would put them w-a-a-a-y w-a-a-a-y out on the left side of the belief system bell curve. Here, most elected Democrats are anti-abortion, pro-gun, socially conservative, "Archie Bunker Democrats". Barbara Boxer and Diane Feinstein couldn't dream of being elected to anything here. That is the world in which I live. Truly committed unapologetic liberals are rare as hen's teeth here. It's a stretch and exageration, but not much of one, to suggest that being labelled a "liberal" here is more damning than being labelled a "child molester", when it comes to ruining a political career. All this while places like New York City are a 3 hour drive away. I am in Amish country. The Amish are more conservative than anyone else I've ever heard of. I am a direct descendant of Amish / Mennonite stock. I grew up where the Kelly McGillis / Harrison Ford movie "Witness" was filmed. I offer that all as an insight into my world. It is not intended to p*ss anyone off.
I am intrigued by the crumpled ballot protest, and I can give you an educated guess on how it will go down in PA where op scans will be used. I fear that a crumpled ballot will be treated as a "spoiled ballot" and will be replaced by the precinct election judge. This is because the ballot must be scanned at the precinct scanner before going in the ballot box. This would not be the case if central scanning were used, as has been the norm up til now.
I fear that once again HAVA might frustrate this effort. All a crumpled ballot protest will do is frustrate the voter and the precinct board. Creases on a ballot will likely be read as marks, and the ballot will kick as an overvote. I do not believe that the board is obligated to hand count it.
An even worse case is if such a ballot were ruled to be a "ballot capable of identification".
Under PA law, any ballot that contains any mark or device that renders it capable of being associated with a particular voter is automatically void.
I know that's not what you wanted to hear. Sorry. The crumpled ballot in PA will likely yield disenfranchisement.
Kurt |
ed hill
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ed_hill
Post Number: 122
Registered: 03-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 5:44 pm: |
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actually what i want to hear is the truth.
and you've probably outlined the situation accurately given a relatively small number of crumples.
it's my opinion that those trusting computer vote tabulation are already disenfranchised despite protestations to the contrary.
sadly much of the american electorate are docile enough for this to be accepted.
regards
ed |
V. Kurt Bellman
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 61
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 6:53 pm: |
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Gotta concur.
Complacency still rules.
Change IS coming.
I can only hope it comes before it's too late.
I don't wish upon society the worst that may be in offing.
A whole generation of people who don't trust elections could be used as perverse justification for not holding them. I hope that's melodramatic thinking, but it might not be.
Better to have sufficient transparency to satisfy skeptics than surrender democracy, even if the skeptics turn out to be wrong. Transparency costs are a small enough price to pay for civil peace. |
ed hill
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ed_hill
Post Number: 123
Registered: 03-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 7:25 pm: |
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kurt
i wonder if sufficient numbers intending to crumple wouldn't create enough pressure to enable those within the system who are concerned (as you seem to be) to shift into a paper ballot/hand count system.
it would require some real effort to inform those currently comforted by ignorance. but i don't see that as insurmountable.
just curious.
what percentage of registered voters signing a stated intent to crumple thier ballots would you think might be enough to force a hand count.
and i recognize at the outset there probably being no smooth mechanism by which this'd be done.
don't assume naivet'e of the difficulty of such a sales effort. btdt
regards
ed |
Pat Vesely
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Pat_vesely
Post Number: 185
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 7:51 pm: |
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Hi Linda, welcome to Black Box Voting.org.
You're right that whether the post about 9/11 is "on the fringe" or provable fact, it has no place on this forum because this organization is solely devoted to election issues.
quote:My concern is about Black Box Voting itself. I'm certain that many Republicans are concerned about voter disenfranchisement as well as election reform. However, there is an elephant in the living room here at BBV. How can anyone discuss election fraud or reform in this country with a straight face and state that this is a non partisan issue? The Republicans have in my opinion, stolen two presidential elections and perhaps other state and local elections as well.
I can sit here with a straight face and tell you that "election reform is a non partisan issue" simply because it is. You do yourself a disservice to believe otherwise.
All Americans regardless of their political leanings or affiliation deserve open, honest, and transparent elections. That in itself makes the issue "non partisan".
Despite what you call "the elephant in the living room", or your personal opinions about the elections having been "stolen", the fact remains that election reform is everyone's business.
You may believe with all your heart that only Republicans would stoop so low as to engage in election fraud, or that all Republicans support it, but the simple fact is that only unethical people engage in fraud, and unethical people can be found in every political party.
In other words, the facts clearly demonstrate that not all Republicans commit election fraud, and not all election fraud is committed by Republicans.
Part of the problem may be where you get your information from. Partisan web sites tend to only post information damaging to their opposition, and 'play down' stories about their own party's actions. Before I was banned at Democraticunderground.com, I would get attacked on a regular basis for posting any story that had to do with Democrats engaged in any type of election fraud. Many people there would accuse me of being a "repuke troll" spreading disinformation, or they would simply excuse what the Democrats do because "the republicans are even worse"!
I believe that all fraud committed by any party is wrong and should be prosecuted. I've seen enough fraud committed by Democrats and successfully prosecuted that I have to disagree with your premise.
At the same time I don't agree with Kurt that the "stolen election" charges have been fully "debunked". Having spent the better portion of my time following this issue very closely for the last few years I've seen enough evidence of voter disenfranchisement on a massive scale that I remain unconvinced the the elections were even remotely fair. I don't have the concrete evidence to prove that the elections were "stolen" per se, but the sheer numbers of voters who were either denied their right to vote, or who's votes were lost for various reasons, leads me to suspect the distinct possibility of a rigged election. And therein lies the problem.
With the outcome so close, I can't trust that it is an accurate reflection of the 'will of the people'.
There is simply not enough evidence one way or the other to prove that the outcome was legitimate.
On the one hand you have people like Kurt who are honest election directors who simply can't conceive that someone else in his position would chance tampering with an election. He firmly believes that most, if not all, equipment related problems can be written off as human errors, mistakes due to unfamiliarity with the new equipment, or just plain old 'glitches' with the machines.
On the other hand, there are people like myself who have years of experience with complex computer systems who just can't accept that this is all just innocent incompetence or poor design.
I've spent years designing and debugging computerized test and measurement systems for a 'Fortune 50' computer peripheral manufacturer and am fully versed in SPC. (Statistical Process Controls) A computerized voting system is, from my point of view, nothing more than a very simple measurement system designed to measure the public's will, and exit polls are the 'statistical process controls' that assess how well the equipment is working.
I've spent well over 1000 hours pouring over the code used in the Diebold machines and hundreds more looking at the electrical design of their systems. I've spent many more hours looking at their internal documents that prove that they had no 'ethical' problems with knowingly breaking the law.
Again, from my point of view, there is no way that Kurt will ever convince me that all of the problems with the machines were just due to 'innocent' mistakes or sheer incompetence, or that the exit polls were just done poorly the last couple of elections.
quote:Both major political parties are NOT the same, and it is a grave mistake to think so, even though most elected Democrats aren't acting like Democrats for the most part.
I find the statement above to be a bit ironic. If you step back a bit and examine both party's actions where it really counts, rather than their rhetoric, you'll find that they're more alike than you might want them to be.
One can expect the major parties to have vast differences when it comes to issues like health care or immigration. But what about your rights? The last I checked, our rights have been being eroded by laws like the Patriot Act, which I might remind you was passed on a bi-partisan vote as was it's renewal. What about human rights in general? I seem to remember the Iraq War Resolution which caused untold numbers of deaths and allowed secret renditions, detentions without charges, and all sorts of human rights abuses at Abu Garahb also passed on a bi-partisan vote. I don't see any difference between a Republican vote or a Democratic vote when it pertains to taking away my rights.
The really ironic part of that statement is that I'm sure a lot of members of the party of 'smaller government', 'lower taxes', and 'individual responsibility' feel the same way about their party as you do about ours. With the new Department of Homeland Security, the government is now larger than it's ever been before. With 'tax day' just passed, people have seen their tax burden grow faster than their paychecks. With all of the Republicans that are currently under indictment claiming that it's anyone's fault but their own, I'm certain that some of them feel the same way about their party as you do about ours. Many elected Republicans aren't acting like Republicans for the most part if you hold their core belief's.
quote:Looks like the issue of stolen elections and voter disenfranchisement, which allows Republicans to continue their stranglehold on our government is not a concern of BBV. My mistake.
Yes, I must agree that you're mistaken. You should take some time to read through the forums here and then see if you still feel the same way about our commitment to fair, honest, and transparent elections.
Pat A. Vesely ;-) |
V. Kurt Bellman
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 62
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 6:54 am: |
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Pat,
You've stated my beliefs PRETTY accurately, except for one aspect I haven't duscussed here yet. This may "blow your mind".
I do believe that electronic voting, indeed any voting system that excesses in technology, does have a disproportionate vote supression effect on Democratic votes, but not because of anything like vote theft.
I once wrote a paper on it, although the disk it was on crashed and I've never rewritten it.
I don't know how to quantify the "bias", other than a guesstimate, or indeed whether it exists outside the particular demographic in which I live.
I have personally observed that a small but significant portion of the electorate are fundamentally "technophobic", that is, they become nervous, confused, and even tremble visibly when confronted with an electronic voting machine. For a variety of age, income and other demographic reasons, and because I know the registration numbers in areas where I have witnessed this behavior, I believe a disproportionate number of technophobic voters are largely Democratic voters.
Where I live (and I did the research, I used to be the data's legal custodian) the older one is, the more likely one is to be a Democrat. The oldest voters here are overwhelmingly Democrats. As one examines each 5-year demographic slice of voters, the margin of Democrats slims. When you get to about 40-42, the parties are about equal. Below 40, the Republicans are a majority. By 30, where voter participation really kicks in, the Republican edge is substantial. Below 30 there are "fluctuations" based on local and national political events when people first registered, but the majority is still Republican.
Now, I'm sorry, but who is going to most successfully navigate a multi-screen (which ours are not) high tech voting device? The young. The tech savvy. The wealthier. Sorry, but the "whiter". The "more English proficient". Every one of the less likely to be able to use high tech voting (older, poorer, blacker, immigrants) are key Democratic constituencies.
I simply refuse to believe this does not show up in the results. Heck, undervoting is huge in the poorer districts (yes, mostly "downticket" undervoting, not so much "top of ticket"). It is much lower in wealthier precincts. The same thing that applied to punchcards in Ohio (see the recent circuit court decision) I believe applies to ALL techy voting. It simply is not "party neutral".
Is that "stealing an election"? Only if one imputes intent. I won't go to intent. I see it as a problem that needs fixing, and no one (other than perhaps the NAACP) has ever seemed to mention this.
Just thought I'd throw that out there. |
Mike Myhre
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Mike_myhre
Post Number: 18
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 10:17 am: |
|
How did this become a partisan issue?
The original post in this thread said nothing about parties. I am sure everyone agrees that the post did not belong on this website because it is horribly off topic, but I think we can all learn something from it.
One of the biggest problems with uncovering the cancer plauging our nation is that people dismiss the messenger as a lunatic or just a partisan issue. Whether that be electronic voting machines or the refusal to truely investigate the greatest national tradgedy of my lifetime. I won't get into the details of 9/11 because this is not the forum to do so, but I will say that everyone I know who has looked into the details (beyond the 5:00 news) has agreed that the story we are being fed doesn't make sense. Coupled with Sen. Pat Roberts (KS) refusal to release the second half of the 9/11 report (to the point that Harry Reid shut down the Senate) and that we never heard Bush or Cheneys story, cries out for investigation.
When this thread was started, Kurt was explaining in another thread how best to talk to elections officials so they wouldn't side with the voting machine companies, yet in this thread, everyone started talking about parties instead of addressing the real issue (BTW: I am independant - I feel that if you claim a party, that means you no longer think about which candidate is best (or lesser evil))
I would like to add to Kurt's lecture on 'carefully speaking' in asking that everyone carefully listen and don't jump to dismissals like "partisan issue".
I think one area that this thread relates to BBV is the "war on terror" was used (one method) to win the 2004 election. (I am enraged that Kerry and the Dems did not do anything to fight that propaganda.) When some 70% of republicans voting in the 2004 election thought that Iraq attacked us on 9/11 it shows the voters went to the polls with disinformation. We are all concentrating on fixing the voting equipment first, but the propaganda is a significant part of the equation too.
I am looking for the truth from all political parties. Hiding fraud within your own party damages your party in the long run.
If I have overreacted, forgive me. A thread that starts off topic is pretty much fair game on where it goes. I respect the opinion of everyone in this forum and don't mean to be overly critical. The "it's a partisan issue" and "it's a conspiracy theory" responses are my biggest pet peves. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 64
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 12:53 pm: |
|
Mike,
Unfortunately, in many places (with numerous exceptions)election reform is largely partisan. This is probably true here in PA as much as anywhere. There are bills in the legislature to fundamentally change the election framework here. PA's present code is as hostile as any to the desires of BBV.
In the legislature (both houses firmly R) all reform bills are hopelessly bottled up in committee. The irony is that the thoroughly Democratic executive branch, including the Secretary of the Commonwealth and his policy team, are seemingly afraid of their shadows on this issue. They seemingly get what's wrong, but are unwilling to advocate anything.
Perhaps it is because if the main bills passed, counties would instantaneously go from a point of "DRE's with no paper trail allowed" as the default solution, to "there must be paper". All this after all the HAVA money was spent. I don't know about where you live, but counties are flat out busted broke in PA, for the most part. They needed to get election changes done right the first time, with the HAVA bucks, and that seems to have come and gone.
Result? PA will be stuck with bad electoral systems for a long time, I'm afraid. |
ed hill
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ed_hill
Post Number: 124
Registered: 03-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 5:29 pm: |
|
you might be right kurt.
even so
seems to me that reading glasses have a lot more going for them than computer tabulation gear.
cheaper
less training
locally managed
less down time
lower storage costs
better security
seems foolish 'till you really look at the cost/benefit situation.
add a widespread suspicion that a vote made by computer is worth the paper you didn't use and we might add the fringe benefit of voters returning to the polls.
(Message edited by ed hill on April 22, 2006) |
Linda Jean Edwards
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Pupmunchkin
Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? 
Votes: 2 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 8:32 pm: |
|
Pat,
I did not come to my beliefs lightly or in an uninformed manner. You are doing yourself a disservice by not comprehending the whole picture. You can't have it both ways, at some point, one must make a choice, and be honest about which political party has done the most damage to this country, and which political party has committed the greater amount of unethical acts and why this is so important. Both the Republican and Democratic parties are fully capable of throwing mud; however, I'm concerned with who is throwing the most unethical and corrupt mud. When we have seen Republicans who have and will do anything to win,the electoral process becomes a partisan issue. The facts speak for themselves.
You state: "All Americans regardless of their political leanings or affiliation
deserve open, honest, and transparent elections. That in itself makes
the issue "non partisan".
Would that we were living in a perfect world, I would agree with your statement, but we are not. Consider the following from: Please go to:http://www.crisispapers.org/topics/election-fraud.htm
"Anyone with access to the election software of a major voting machine vendor can change the outcome of a national election and determine which party will control Congress. Election fraud can now be committed on a national, not just a local, basis."
Barbara Simons, Past President
Association for Computing Machinery.
By Mark Crispin Miller:
"A veritable sea of evidence, statistical as well as anecdotal and circumstantial, supports the claim that Bush, again, was not elected by the people.
To nod agreement that this was indeed an honest win is to forget how Bush was shoehorned into office in the first place; to ignore the ease with which electronic totals can be changed without a trace; to suppress the fact that Diebold, Sequoia and ES&S—the major manufacturers of touch screen voting machines and central tabulators—are owned and run by Bush Republicans, who have made no secret of their partisan intentions; to deny the value of the exit polls, which turn out to have been “mistaken” only in the swing states; to downplay the weird inflation of the Bush vote in county after county, where the number of votes for president was somehow higher than the number of voters who turned out; to ignore the bald chicanery of the Bush supporters who ran the central polling station in Ohio’s Warren County and forced out the press and poll monitors so they could count the vote in secret; to forget the numerous accounts of vote fraud coast to coast throughout the prior weeks of early voting; to overlook the fact that every single “glitch” or “error” that has been reported favors Bush; to ignore the countless instances of ballots—absentee, provisional—thrown away or left uncounted; to forget that the civilian vote abroad (some four million Americans) was being mishandled by the Pentagon (which had somehow become responsible for doing the State Department’s job); and to ignore the many dirty tricks reported—the polling places quickly relocated at the last minute, the fake voter-registration drives, the thousands of Americans who found themselves not on the rolls, the police road-blocks, the bullying pro-Bush poll workers, the machines that kept translating votes for Kerry into votes for Bush. And so on."
Pat said: "Despite what you call "the elephant in the living room", or your personal opinions about the elections having been "stolen",the fact remains that election reform is everyone's business. In other words, the facts clearly demonstrate that not all Republicans commit election fraud, and not all election fraud is committed by Republicans."
Yes, election reform certainly IS everyone's business. I NEVER said that only Republicans would "stoop so low as to engage in election fraud". NOT all election fraud from an historical viewpoint was committed by Republicans, a cursory look at American history tells us so. I did not say that ALL election fraud was committed by Republicans; I said that I believe that the 2000 and 2004 elections respectively were stolen, whether it was by the Supreme Court decision in 2000, which gave Bush his mandate or voter disenfranchisement or computer fraud. I have read substantial PROOF that the 2000 presidential election results were tampered with, allowing Bush to "win." If a complete and accurate vote count had been allowed in the state of Florida, I think we would have had a different president.There is a veritable mountain of information out there if you would choose to look for it, instead of sticking to your "it is not a partisan issue" talking points.
Representative John Conyers had substantial proof that something was amiss in the state of Ohio in 2004. "Preserving Democracy: What went Wrong In Ohio", US House Judiciary Committee Democratic staff. http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/
* Preserving Democracy: What Went Wrong in Ohio
January 5, 2005
US House Judiciary Committee Democratic staff
Ohio presidential election irregularities investigation requested by Representative John Conyers. Report includes a brief chronology of the events, a summary of the relevant background law, detailed findings and their various recommendations for action.
Also see, "Lawmakers Seek Inquiry Into Ohio Vote" New York Times archives 12-15-2004. And, "Study of the 2004 Presidential Election Exit Poll Discrepancies" from electionuscountsvotes.org
You stated: "Part of the problem may be where you get your information from. Partisan web sites tend to only post information damaging to their opposition, and 'play down' stories about their own party's actions."
I do not have time to spend all day looking at "partisan" web sites, and your attitude is patronizing. I'm sorry that you were banned from a web site. The few blogs I have looked at generally allow differing opinions. I don't bother with blogs which allow obscene rants. I've never had a chance to look at Democraticunderground.com. I like to get my information from books or accurate news services, and elected officials web sites.
Pat said: "I believe that all fraud committed by any party is wrong and should be prosecuted. I've seen enough fraud committed by Democrats and successfully prosecuted that I have to disagree with your premise." Again, I have NOT stated that Democrats have never committed election fraud. My comments pertain only to the elections of 2000 and 2004. You also state: "With the outcome so close, I can't trust that it is an accurate reflection of the 'will of the people'. There is simply not enough evidence one way or the other to prove that the outcome was legitimate." I think there has been a great deal of evidence submitted. Election fraud has ALWAYS existed throughout the history of this country's elections, be it Republican generated or Democratic in origin.
Regarding the 2004 election fraud: "A Corrupted Election; Despite What you may have heard, the exit polls were right." by Steve Freeman and Josh Mitteldorf 2-15-2005 from: http://election04.ssrc.org/research/electionirregularities/
Pat said: "On the one hand you have people like Kurt who are honest election directors who simply can't conceive that someone else in his position would chance tampering with an election. He firmly believes that most, if not all, equipment related problems can be written off as human errors, mistakes due to unfamiliarity with the new equipment, or just plain old 'glitches' with the machines."
With all due respect to Kurt, he is sticking his head in the sand if he truly believes that election "tampering" does not exist! Unfortunately, as you have mentioned unethical conduct does exist across the wide spectrum of human behavior.
I do not work with computers other than as a writing tool, my husband is the computer guru in the family. But I know enough from his many years of experience, and have read enough to understand that computers can be "hacked" or tampered with to change the outcome of an election or other information output. The following article had another take on the problem of Diebold. Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman: "Shocking Diebold Conflict of Interest Revelations from Secretary of State Further Taint Ohio's Electoral Credibility. April-2006 http://www.crisispapers.org/topics/election-fraud.htm and also "Free Press uncovers evidence of ballot tampering in Warren County, Ohio, by Bob Fitrakis, April 19, 2006. http://www.freepress.org/index2.php
Pat said: "Again, from my point of view, there is no way that Kurt will ever convince me that all of the problems with the machines were just due to 'innocent' mistakes or sheer incompetence, or that the exit polls were just done poorly the last couple of elections." On that point we agree.
Pat said: "If you step back a bit and examine both party's actions where it really counts, rather than their rhetoric, you'll find that they're more alike than you might want them to be."
How can you possibly justify such a statement? What "really counts" is the FACT that this administration is slowly but surely dismantling our civil rights as well as eviscerating the Constitution piece by piece. If it were true that "they're more alike" then it would make absolutely no difference at all who is in control of our government. But it does matter. You are essentially guilty of the same behavior you are accusing the Democrats of. Obviously, the Democrats haven't been behaving like the opposition party. What do you think will happen if the Democrats regain control of the Senate this fall? Do you think that the situation will remain the same? It is critically important that the 2006 elections proceed in an ethical manner.I know plenty of individuals, including myself who are sickened by their equivocating behavior. I can think of a mere handful, Senator Russ Feingold and Representative John Conyers for example who are REAL Democrats. These men have remained true to their ideals, a rarity these days. So many Republican lawmakers have been dropping like dying flies, I do not see their Democratic equivalent, do you? We have not seen the likes of Tom DeLay or Randall Cunningham or Jack Abramoff in recent administrations. I urge you to think about the DAMAGE that this corrupt administration has and continues to perpetrate on the American people. Many good, decent American citizens are unfortunately unable to see the wreckage being inflicted upon them. And now there are reports of a possible war with Iran. Do you honestly think that this would be happening if we had a Democratic president? BTW, some of those Democratic Senators who voted for the Iraq war have since admitted to being wrong, John Kerry being one of them. Also, Senator Feingold attempted to halt the repassage of the Patriot Act, but he did not receive nary a whimper of support. Please do not throw the "baby out with the bathwater," one must not become so cynical that one forgets the good that has been accomplished by Democrats in the past. I would like to direct you to an excellent web site; www.nonesoblind.org, by Dr. Andrew Bard Schmookler. Particularly his article: "The Blindness of the Liberals- With a Case In Point-" http://www.nonesoblind.org/blog/?m=200510
Pat said:"I don't see any difference between a Republican vote or a Democratic vote when it comes to taking away my rights."
I would suggest that the information you are receiving is skewed. And it doesn't seem as though you have a very clear picture of the dire situation our country is in at this time. Unfortunately, it is you who are missing the irony of the situation. The Republicans are so full of hypocrisy I don't believe they would know the truth if it bit them. They pretend to be full of moral values and outrage, when their very actions belie the facts. Yes, the Democrats are a cowed bunch. But I do not think they are pathological in their hypocrisy. I almost became an Independent myself, until I realized that "jumping ship" was not the answer. I read recently that California voters were becoming Independent voters in large numbers. It will be interesting to see what the 2006 election results will be in CA.
Another quote: "Many elected Republicans aren't acting like Republicans for the most part if you hold their core belief's." Absolutely agree with you on that. The current Republican party is losing support from some of the founders of the modern conservative movement, such as William F. Buckley and Kevin Phillips, who recently had an excellent piece in the Washington Post: "How the GOP Became God's Own Party" 04-02-2006 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/01/AR2006040100004. html?sub=AR
An excerpt:
"Unfortunately, more danger lurks in the responsiveness of the new GOP
coalition to Christian evangelicals, fundamentalists and Pentecostals,
who muster some 40 percent of the party electorate. Many millions
believe that the Armageddon described in the Bible is coming soon.
Chaos in the explosive Middle East, far from being a threat, actually
heralds the second coming of Jesus Christ. Oil price spikes, murderous
hurricanes, deadly tsunamis and melting polar ice caps lend further
credence.
The potential interaction between the end-times electorate, inept
pursuit of Persian Gulf oil, Washington's multiple deceptions and the
financial crisis that could follow a substantial liquidation by foreign
holders of U.S. bonds is the stuff of nightmares. To watch U.S. voters
enable such policies — the GOP coalition is unlikely to turn back — is
depressing to someone who spent many years researching, watching and
cheering those grass roots.
These developments have warped the Republican Party and its electoral
coalition, muted Democratic voices and become a gathering threat to
America’s future. No leading world power in modern memory has become a
captive of the sort of biblical inerrancy that dismisses modern
knowledge and science. The last parallel was in the early 17th century,
when the papacy, with the agreement of inquisitional Spain, disciplined
the astronomer Galileo for saying that the sun, not the Earth, was the
center of our solar system."
Pat said,"Yes, I must agree that you're mistaken. You should take some time to
read through the forums here and then see if you still feel the same
way about our commitment to fair, honest, and transparent elections."
I'm new to this site.I was interested because of Beverly Harris's book, "Black Box Voting," which I have recommended to others. You are the expert regarding computer machinations, I do not pretend to have that type of technical knowledge. Most of my concerns are regarding the factual as well as emotional truths concerning this country today. While this site is probably not the best forum for analytical discussions regarding politics, I felt compelled to respond to some of your statements.I have never seen an administration as corrupt as this one, and I have studied American history in depth. The important issue is being able to recognize the FACT that this administration is doing unprecedented harm.It is because of the immensity of this administration's lies that I became an activist of sorts, as my time will allow. I have very young children to raise, and it is because of their lives that I'm committed to doing whatever is necessary to assure they will have a viable future. This administration is putting all of our children's existence in the path of harm's way. They must be voted out of power.
Peace,
Linda Jean ------------------------------------------------------------ |
ed hill
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ed_hill
Post Number: 126
Registered: 03-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 10:29 pm: |
|
I have to agree with Linda's impassioned and reasoned post. Dems cowed as they may be would never seriously consider the use of nuclear weapons.
Bush is exploding .75 megaton non nuclear bomb to determin the megatonnage of "tactical" nuke required to destroy underground installations. As with the buildup to Iraq this can hardly be viewed as a bluff.
In light of that fact, IMHO every other issue is moot. There are an estimated 400 underground installations in Iran which are potentially targets.
I'm new here as well. I agree that this is off topic here and apologize for that. I just don't think there really IS any other topic right now. |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 4209
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, April 23, 2006 - 8:10 am: |
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Linda, when you phrase things like this:
quote: You are doing yourself a disservice by not comprehending the whole picture.
it doesn't really buttress the argument with factual enhancements. We've read the information you posted, and I've spoken on the phone and met the individuals whose work you cite.
quote: You can't have it both ways, at some point, one must make a choice, and be honest about which political party has done the most damage to this country, and which political party has committed the greater amount of unethical acts and why this is so important.
Very early when researching this issue, I would have agreed with your position. I think Pat may also say that, as I've watched him evolve over the years. He is a prodigious researcher. And in the beginning, your point of view seemed to work.
I know I changed my point of view when I started doing field work, rather than just Internet work. If you get out into the field and you have an inquiring mind, you very quickly realize that this infection starts locally and that national politics cannot exploit elections without using the patchwork of local corruption. That's changing, as we go to uniform state-wide systems, but right now, control is local.
quote:
"Anyone with access to the election software of a major voting machine vendor can change the outcome of a national election and determine which party will control Congress. Election fraud can now be committed on a national, not just a local, basis."
That statement is not supported by the facts, except in that a national political network can exploit a patchwork of local opportunities.
- Methods of voting machine exploitation are different depending on the manufacturer and, within the manufacturer, on the model. There is not a one-sweep method of tampering with voting machines.
If you go to the map produced by VerifiedVoting.org, which shows the different voting machine systems in each jurisdiction, you'll see that there is not a one-sweep method.
Exploiting elections on a national level can be done, but only by targeting key states and within them, key trouble spots.
Now, it might be possible to do something on a grander scale -- for example, ES&S and Hart Intercivic program each election for the counties. But that still requires too many fingers in the pie, in my opinion.
Tampering by remote on a national scale has not been proven feasible, though remote tampering on a local scale is feasible.
quote:By Mark Crispin Miller:
"A veritable sea of evidence, statistical as well as anecdotal and circumstantial, supports the claim that Bush, again, was not elected by the people.
That may be. But Bush is just one candidate in one election. We are concerned with the whole tapestry of elections, and we contend that the tampering is a significant temptation at the local level. The position most likely to be targeted is the purse-string position, the commissioner/supervisor/what have you. That position, in turn, controls who is the elections supervisor. The elections supervisor, in turn, chooses who does their IT work.
Our field work has indicated that once you get an infection at that level, it's very difficult to clean it up. National political operatives -- not necessarily the party leaders, but the operatives that do the down and dirty work -- well, they know where these pockets of infection are and they can certainly have their way with them.
The reason it's so important to understand how the infection got started is that if you clean it up, it makes it VERY DIFFICULT to tamper on a national level. Conversely, if you clean up a national office that was elected through manipulation, as long as the local infections are in place, you are pretty much guaranteed a repeat performance.
quote:To nod agreement that this was indeed an honest win is to forget how Bush was shoehorned into office in the first place
No one here is saying the election was honest. In fact, it is Black Box Voting that uncovered real evidence of tampering in the voting machines. Not statistics -- hard evidence. Our audits also taught us very quickly that the so-called "audit trail" could not substantiate the results.
quote: to ignore the ease with which electronic totals can be changed without a trace;
We're the ones that proved that.
quote: to suppress the fact that Diebold, Sequoia and ES&S—the major manufacturers of touch screen voting machines and central tabulators—are owned and run by Bush Republicans
Diebold, ES&S and Hart Intercivic have close ties to Republicans, but the Diebold subsidiary, Diebold Election Systems, is very popular with Democrats. Its ownership and ties came from criminal elements -- stock market manipulators, embezzlers, people involved in various investment schemes. There's no reason to believe they didn't just sell to the highest bidder -- or, maybe they got into it so they could get their hands on results early, which would allow them to make a killing in the markets.
Sequoia also evolved from elements with ties to organized crime (if you believe Hopsicker's work). It used to be you'd find Sequioa voting machines every place you'd find gambling. Sequoia then went through a chain of international owners. The largest investor in one of the most recent owners (De la Rue) was a major, major Democrat Party funder, and was accused of trying to buy British foreign policy on Israel. That information is in my book, but people consistently ignore it.
Just keep an open mind. I feel very strongly that cleaning up this administration will NOT clean up elections. The infrastructure is sitting right there to be exploited by the next person, be it a Republican or a Democrat. We've got to strike at the root.
Best next step: state-level legislative investigations to get the vendors and testing facilities and certifiers under oath and on record. If well prepped, once this happens it will unravel pretty quickly. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 70
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, April 23, 2006 - 12:25 pm: |
|
Bev,
I dear friend of mine (a Ph.D in organizational structures) once summed up what happens in many reform movements and issue oriented organizations. They frequently start with a critical mass of like-minded thinkers that have several or even numerous beliefs in common. Often, they come to believe that these beliefs are inextricably linked. So that when folks come along who believe in their core message, but dissent on some of the rest of what has been held dear, that some of the core of believers turn on the new converts or recruits. Or, as he succinctly summed it up:
"They become more interested in hunting for heretics than winning converts."
This movement, in my humble opinion, is in dire danger of doing just that. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 2156
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, April 23, 2006 - 1:09 pm: |
|
"So that when folks come along who believe in their core message, but dissent on some of the rest of what has been held dear, that some of the core of believers turn on the new converts or recruits."
That can also be part of a deliberate strategy of divide & conquer. Can be very effective, unfortunately, and can be deliberate or unintentional.
This is one reason why it's vital to have a simple, clear, written mission statement that everyone agrees to, and to refer back to that as a bellweather.
It can be surprisingly difficult to come up with a simple, clear mission statement that's agreed by just 2 people! Often people will agree to something, but will have unstated personal agendas. Never underestimate how difficult it can be to agree on a basic purpose which everyone agrees to support, and then stick to it. It's crucial to have this written down. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 72
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 3 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, April 23, 2006 - 6:45 pm: |
|
Bev,
Regarding this quote:
"...as we go to uniform state-wide systems, but right now, control is local."
That is so dead on correct. It is what is scaring me to death. I know a lot of people are very critical of "security by obscurity", and rightly so. But up until recently, we had a version of "security by diversity" in electoral systems, meaning that there were so many diverse systems in place that it was nearly impossible to keep track of what was where much less being able to "rig the game" in any meaningful sense other than locally.
That became less true in 2004, but now starting in 2006, an astonsihing amount of uniformity will be in place. Figure out how to compromise 4 or 5 key systems, and you can do real honest-to -goodness damage. By 2008, we will have not only the "oligopoly" firmly in place, but two full years for miscreants to plan and implement a strategy. Unless safeguards keep making repeated quantum leaps in sophistication, it is simply a matter of time until the whole system is lost.
Every new voting technology that came along TEMPORARILY helped security of the vote by thwarting the old ways of cheating, but the cheaters always caught up eventually. Now, with the whole country using 4 or 5 systems, the results of that are potentially devastating. Meanwhile, 4 or 5 companies have dug their hooks into the taxpayers, ad infinitum, because localities need them for ongoing support. HAVA is a license for a few companies to print money.
Kurt |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 4210
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, April 23, 2006 - 7:18 pm: |
|
Security by diversity. Wonderfully put. And another member of BBV, Linda Franz, has also put it eloquently: The genius of democracy is in its dispersed nature.
While it makes for a messy system, it makes for a stable system. |
Mike Myhre
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Mike_myhre
Post Number: 19
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 1:34 pm: |
|
Sorry to be a pain, but I still don't see how the 9/11 post became a partisan issue. The poster complained that a true bipartisan commission was not appointed to investigate (heck FEMA and NTSB weren't even allowed to investigate). How does this instantly become a partisan issue? In the posts that followed:
Pat said:
"There are plenty of partisan liberal web sites where this would be much better suited."
Kurt Said:
"why does election reform seem to attract so much of the "fringe" at times?"
Bev Said:
"Yes, Kurt -- people don't realize how many Republicans and Libertarians do support this issue."
This is a strategy that propaganaists use to avoid discussing any hot issues. I have two concerns:
1) even though off topic, it was quickly labled as partisan or fringe and therefore doesn't belong here. Everyone here are activists of some sort for voting reform; I would have expected most with an open mind to at least consider some of the issues in the post.
2) If new ideas are so easily dismissed because they don't jive with what you currently think you know, how is voting reform going to suffer?
I have been visiting BBV since before Bev's book was published (I downloaded a copy from the website). I have been posting only recently because I feel that securing voting is one of the best things we can do for our Republic. One other thing that I rate up there with voting reform is speaking out when people are being fed a story (there are lots of them with this administration).
The 9/11 story is one of those things that people need to speak out about when the issue pops up.
Before Bush took office, Cheney, Rumsfield, Wolfowitz, Bolton and others wrote a paper (called PNAC) about what it would take to rebuild americas defences. They declared it would take a "new perl harbor". Their plan of action involved two wars at once, dismantling the UN, permanent bases in the middle east, control of cyberspace, new nuclear weapons and biological weapons to target specific DNA. To this date, they have executed their plan except for the biological weapons (at least that we know of).
If you call this a partisan issue, you are wrong. I don't think most of Republican congress knew what they had planned (or thought they were serious).
If you call this a "conspiracy theory", just remember that 15 people with box cutters taking down two skyscrapers (3 if you count building 7 that wasn't even hit by falling debris) and plowing a hole through the pentagon (planes are not allowed into their airpace without a military transponder) is a conspiracy theory too (don't you think they would have at least one picutre of the airplane attacking our countries most secure building?). It's just that their story doesn't fit.
Unless anyone has more to say. I am done with this thread. If anyone wan'ts to discuss it further, maybe we can move it to a more suitable forum. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 87
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 4:15 am: |
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"(don't you think they would have at least one picutre of the airplane attacking our countries most secure building?)"
Umm, I saw the video stills of the Pentagon plane hitting. Didn't you? |
Mike Myhre
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Mike_myhre
Post Number: 20
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 8:23 am: |
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Kurt Said:
"Umm, I saw the video stills of the Pentagon plane hitting. Didn't you?"
The one where the 757 is hidden by the parking lot structure? Did you see an airplane or did you assume there was an airplane because you were expecting to see one and saw smoke and then an explosion? White smoke is comming out of the back (Airplanes have black smoke, missles have white). No marks where the wings would have hit the pentagon. No tracks on the grass. It was a beautifully clear day, why were the only pictures we were allowed to see of the plane didn't show the plane? Why did the FBI confiscate the images from all other businesses in the area that would have had perfect shots of it (like the hotel)? What about DOT cameras? Why would a hijacker who wanted to hit the pentagon not just dive into it and hit any side, but instead circled around it making a 270 degree turn at ground level to hit the only side that they had recently reinforced (the side opposite rumsfields office). I am a pilot and in my opinion even an experienced pilot couldn't make a turn like that, not hit the grass but hit the building dead center (we were told by their instructors that the hijackers couldn't even land an airplane). When is the last time you saw only 60 passengers on a 757 (pre-9/11). Why wasn't the NTSB allowed to investigate? Here is the NTSB accident page. Enter 9/11/2001 for start and end dates, then try and read the report. These are just scratching the surface. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 2176
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 8:56 am: |
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There are lots of unanswered questions about these events. I don't think this is the correct website to discuss it on, however.
Mike, can you recommend a forum on another website for any others who want to discuss it further? |
Mike Myhre
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Mike_myhre
Post Number: 21
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 9:12 am: |
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No I don't. I did a quick google and found a ton of matches, but I couldn't personally recommend one. I also wouldn't want to pick one that someone else may have already formed an opinion on and thus label me as "one of those". If anyone else wants to take this up elsewhere, and can recommend a site, I would be happy to join/continue the discussion there. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 89
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 9:22 am: |
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Mike,
Try:
www.makestuffupoutofwholecloth.com
Kurt |
Mike Myhre
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Mike_myhre
Post Number: 22
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 9:24 am: |
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That URL doesn't work. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 90
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 9:34 am: |
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Read the URL carefully, Mike. Don't link it, read it. Would it help if I did this?:
make_stuff_up_out_of_whole_cloth.com
 |
V. Kurt Bellman
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 91
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 9:39 am: |
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Mike,
The speculation that started this thread, and the information you put in your recent post are two of the biggest piles of horse manure I think I've ever read.
I'll not associate with that kind of sheer madness. Find another planet to spread that crap. What color is the sky in your world? |
John Washburn
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Johnwashburn
Post Number: 79
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 1:42 pm: |
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I would try: http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/
I too agree 9/11 is off topic for Black Box Voting.
here is the NTSB report on the 1999 crash of Payne Stewarts jet. Notice that withine 10 minutes of loosing voice contact the air force is called to intecept.
Here is a link to the CNN story: http://www.cnn.com/US/9910/25/wayward.jet.07/
Notice jets from 3 states scramble for 1 Payne Stewart but only 4 scramble for 4 simultaneous hijackings? Quite a change in SOP for only 2 years. |
Mike Copass
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Votes_with_paper
Post Number: 34
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, May 5, 2006 - 12:54 pm: |
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I agree that General Discussion threads should always circle back to Voting Rights, Voting Issues.
Voting issues are at heart "Truth" issues, and no matter your political stripe, if you care about voting and Truth, you find yourself here at bbv.
Please do not be dismissive of 9/11 investigations -- they are are also a quest for "Truth" -- but better not to clog up voting threads. Take your issues to:
Scholars: http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/
Veterans: http://www.v911t.org
General: http://www.911truth.org
webforums: http://www.loosechange911.com
I think 9/11 activists are by and large fairly POORLY INFORMED about Voting Issues -- but might be receptive. If you approach a 9/11 activist with voting messages, who knows, you just might win a very interested party to your side.
Keep it positive. Truth --> Justice ---> Peace.
Michael
(Message edited by votes_with_paper on May 05, 2006) |
Kathleen Wynne
Moderator
Username: Admin_ii
Post Number: 277
Registered: 08-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, May 5, 2006 - 1:23 pm: |
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Hey Mike,
Truly, our intention is not to appear dismissive of the 9/11 activists. In fact, I have a vested interest in the subject personally, as I was working in NYC at the time and witnessed the attacks and experienced its aftermath. I will carry that memory for the rest of my life and I too have a lot of questions that have not been sufficiently answered by our government.
I can assure you, BBV has the greatest respect for these advocates for truth regarding the events of 9/11. We are only maintaining our site in accordance with our charter and our 501(c)3 status. I hope you and they will understand our situation.
We welcome and value their input on the voting issue.
Kathleen
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TRIPLE PROTECTION FOR ELECTION 2006 - STARTING NOW:
(1) Use Freedom of Information, public records requests ("All American Paper Chase")
(2) Try Dumpster Diving for Democracy
(3) Candid America Project - Don't leave home without your camcorder
HOW TO DO IT: http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/6/6.html
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