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| 3-28-08: Chain of Custody Investigati... |
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| Author |
Message |
    
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 7781
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? 
Votes: 5 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 2:26 pm: | 
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An original investigation by Black Box Voting
Last week, I described a way to alter ballots using the techniques used to remove ink from old, archival paper documents and old books. Archivists and custodians of rare books and documents are generally familiar with these techniques, because they are needed to restore documents.
These techniques have been adapted by modern-day criminals to "wash" the writing off of checks, and this is why it's dangerous to send checks by putting them in your mailbox with the little red flag up. Criminals have learned that they can remove the ink -- the amount written and the payee -- without disturbing the information printed on your check by the bank.
BALLOT WASHING
Archivists know this technique as a document repair method, criminals know it as "check washing." If you have the right chemicals, can you remove votes from ballots, allowing election-riggers to "re-vote" the ballots before they are counted, recounted, or audited?
Yes. We have been able to remove votes marked in ink from ballots without leaving a trace. Using this technique, insiders can alter votes on ballots.
HAVE INSIDERS EVER ACTUALLY BEEN CAUGHT TAMPERING WITH BALLOTS?
Yes. We now know that an aide to Maine Speaker of the House John Martin, together with a legislative aide, pleaded guilty in 1994 to rigging ballots in a recount structured almost identically to the New Hampshire presidential primary recount. Ballots had been packed up in cardboard boxes "sealed" with tape (a practice that the media called "an invitation to ballot-rigging") and transported to a central location for a recount.
The state attorney general and the Maine secretary of state were criticized for stonewalling the investigation after the insiders were caught red-handed, and the speaker of the house was not prosecuted, though he was alleged to have had inside information. The ballot-riggers got a few months in jail, a $2000 fine, and a sentence for community service. At least one of the perps did not pay all of his fine nor complete his community service requirement. Next time you're told to "trust" election insiders, laugh at that, ignore the advice, and keep asking sensible follow up questions!
In response to this "ballot-gate" scandal, the state of Maine invested $60,000 in more secure ballot boxes and changed policy to store them in an evidence vault used to secure evidence in pending criminal cases.
New Hampshire has known of this incident for at least 14 years, but failed to act to secure its own ballots.
New Hampshire ballot boxes - Presidential primary, 2008
THIS EXPERIMENT IS RELEVANT TO MAIL-IN VOTING, CENTRAL COUNT SYSTEMS, AUDITS, AND RECOUNTS
If it's possible for insiders to "wash" the votes off of paper ballots, all systems which give insiders access to ballots before they are publicly counted are at risk. The special risk is that ballot washing would enable vote alteration even when all ballots are accounted for. In other words, instead of substituting one ballot for another, ballot washing allows votes on the SAME ballot to be changed.
We have been experimenting with this. We learned that Premier/Diebold sells Eberhard-Faber black felt tip pens. We were not allowed to buy the Accuvote pens from Premier/Diebold because we do not have an account with them, but we purchased the same pens from another supplier.
Jim March and John Brakey came through with some genuine Diebold ballots, extras that had been used for a private election. In addition, Black Box Voting has a few Diebold ballots from the famous garbage raid outside the Volusia County, Florida warehouse. These ballots are not the same as New Hamshire presidential primary election ballots, which appear to be on thinner stock, with a colored bar along the top. We have thus far been unable to obtain a specimen ballot for New Hampshire.
WE WANT TO FIND OUT:
a) Which pens put your vote in the most jeopardy
b) Which pens have ink that is most difficult to remove
c) What effect different kinds of paper and paper coating have on ability to remove the vote mark from the ballot.
d) How the "official" pens and ballots fare when someone attempts to wash the votes off the ballots.
PRELIMINARY RESULTS
I'll be posting a formal report with photos and a video when we've completed all the tests. Preliminary tests indicate more work is needed and we are awaiting a shipment with additional materials for this project. Here's what we've found so far:
INK FROM BALL POINT PENS CAN BE LIFTED RIGHT OFF THE BALLOT
Both blue and black ball point pen can be removed easily with denatured alcohol. The amazing thing about removing ink with denatured alcohol is that even if you spill solvent all over the ballot it leaves NO EVIDENCE that the paper was ever wet. Of course, slopping solvent on the paper is not necessary because all you need is a plastic applicator bottle and bits of paper towel for easy, quick removal of the vote. The ink lifts off the page with the only evidence being slight indentations -- and those only exist if the voter pressed hard with his pen.
CONCLUSION: Ball point pen should never be used to mark ballots. In reality, this means mail-in votes are in special jeopardy, because it will be nearly impossible to stop people from picking up whatever pen is handy. Even in the polling place, some people may choose to use their own pens, thinking any black pen will suffice -- and for most modern optical scan voting machines, those marks will be read just fine. The problem is, the marks can be lifted right off the ballot leaving no trace, and insiders can re-mark the ballots.
We understand that banks are now using a special coating when printing some checks, which reveals the presence of solvents if they are applied. We should learn more about that to see if such a coating does indeed exist and whether it could be used for absentee ballot paper stock.
FELT TIP PENS, SHARPIES, "PERMANENT" MARKERS
We were able to lift BIC "Mark-It" fine point black "permanent marker" with denatured alcohol, but not completely. There was still some evidence that the mark had been made, though it was much lighter and "bled" to leave visible evidence. And it took two applications of solvent to get the marks half-way lifted.
We were not able to lift Sharpie fine point permanent marker at all. However, it is unlikely that this pen will be chosen to mark ballots by any election administrator, since it sometimes bleeds through the paper which would be undesirable for two-sided ballots.
This brings us to the Eberhard-Faber black felt tip pen sold by elections vendors for the purpose of marking optical scan ballots.
http://www.premierelections.com/premierdirect/cgi-bin/desi_catalog.pl?section=6&id=56
Accuvote marking pen
http://www.amazon.com/Eberhard-Faber-Porous-Point-Medium/dp/B00006IFFS
Eberhard Faber(R) Porous Point Pens
Amazingly, this pen fails the "spit test" -- when we got the pens we ordered, before doing any official tests we marked a cardboard mailing container, moistened a fingertip with saliva, and part of the mark came off! It did leave a smear and was by no means removed altogether, and spit is a poor choice of solvent because unlike denatured alcohol, it leaves a watermark.
When we applied denatured alcohol, however, the Eberhard-Faber pens performed better than any of the other brands. The denatured alcohol had no effect whatsoever on the mark. Marks made by the Eberhard-Faber pens appeared to be indelible, impervious to the standard check-washing solvents.
NOT SO FAST -- "SPIT" WORKED BETTER THAN SOLVENT?
If you can lift part of the mark with plain ol' spit, but denatured alcohol leaves it entirely intact, it seems logical that the chemicals in Eberhard-Faber ballot marking pens may respond to a different approach. Indeed, that proved to be the case.
In a much more pleasant experiment (denatured alcohol, acetone and the like are toxic, flammable and nasty to work with) -- it turns out that Old Spice "Whitewater" after shave lotion partially lifted the Eberhard-Faber ink, and a second application lifted it further. But if you have to manipulate a lot of votes, it wouldn't be efficient to do repeat applications, and the ballots would come out with a telltale scent. Old Spice after shave lotion provided clues, but not answers. Based on the Old Spice after shave result, we've ordered some new substances to see if they lift Eberhard-Faber ink from ballots.
WE HAVEN'T GOTTEN TO THE PAPER STOCK YET
All of the above experiments were done on uncoated cardstock, and it stands to reason that coatings on the paper might make the ink easier to "wash".
AND NOW, A WORD ABOUT CARTING FLAMMABLES AROUND IN BALLOT TRANSPORT VANS
Ordinary solvents can be used to lift the ink off of any ballot marked with ball point pen, and this will include many of the absentee ballots, some of the polling place ballots, and many of the hand counted ballots. But how practical is it to tote tins of flammable solvents with toxic fumes around in a ballot transport van in the winter?
You've probably seen what these cans look like. Paint thinner, turpentine, what have you -- these chemicals are sold in square cans with a screw-on cap on the flat top surface. Glug-glug-glug-- not the kind of thing you want to splash around with in the passenger seat.
A quick visit to the hardware store nearest the archive building, where the New Hampshire recount ballots were being counted, did yield an unexpected result: While the shelves were fully stocked for all the other supplies, someone had purchased FIVE CANS of denatured alcohol during the last days of the Republican recount.
5 large cans denatured alcohol purchased in hardware store near New Hampshire recount
I asked the clerk how often they restock the shelves, and he said they do so every couple days. During the last days of the Republican recount, they were counting a lot of hand-count ballots, which are more likely to have marks made with ball point pen, so this did raise our eyebrows.
We followed this discovery up with a public records request for invoices, receipts etc. for purchases of products like this; the cost would have been about $75. We have not yet received those documents.
SOLVENT APPLICATOR BOTTLES?
We learned, as anyone else would who needs to remove stray ink marks from archived documents or old books, that it doesn't matter whether you are in a vehicle or not -- the most convenient way to remove marks with solvents is to keep the solvent in small plastic applicator bottles. These small plastic bottles have a nozzle that shuts off air flow when not in use -- necessary both to eliminate fumes and to reduce evaporation, because these chemicals evaporate quickly when the air hits them.
As an extra precaution, if carrying solvent applicator bottles in a vehicle, you'd want to keep them in a ziplock bag.
Here are two photographs taken by Susan Pynchon in the New Hampshire ballot transport van on Jan. 17, 2008. We are interested in getting your input on what you see inside the ziplock bag. Post away.
What's this?
What are these?
In the mean time, we are completing our experiment. We will then publish recommendations on the kinds of pens (and ballots paper) NOT to use and what kind SHOULD be used this November. And there will really be no excuse for not following those recommendations, will there? Because the cost of getting the proper pens is minimal and there is plenty of time to do so. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 4834
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 5:06 pm: |
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Great information. Intriguing. Worrying.
I bet Eberhard-Faber could tell you what solvents to use to remove their ink (e.g., if you told them your child had accidentally marked up a special book, and what could you do to remove it).
You could probably also get lots of info from the free consumer hotlines for stain removal (e.g. there are big companies that sell laundry detergents that also offer advice on stain removal). They might also have some useful hints. Same thing for dry cleaners/laundries. There are surely pockets of arcane knowledge about such things--in addition to the obvious sources of knowledge you've already contacted (archivists, etc.)
And wasn't that infamous Diebold programmer originally in the ballot-printing business? (And while spending time in prison, perhaps a convicted felon might come across check forgers and similar specialists with tips to share.) Maybe this guy was an all-round election "specialist", with knowledge of various techniques. Knowing one way to "fix" ballots could fire up the imagination to create ways to do this on a larger scale. With all these "creative" tools my imagination is taking flight. . . |
Jon Evans
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Jevans9
Post Number: 56
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 5:12 pm: |
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from BBV admin: I reposted graphics in smaller size below. Thanks, Jon.
No problem, I'll make sure all future photos are smaller 
(Message edited by jevans9 on March 29, 2008) |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 7783
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 5:25 pm: |
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Repost of images in Jon's post -- overlarge images skew the text on these pages.
close, but no see-gar, Jon. The red thing on your's is a ziplock device. Note the white collar under the red device. It appears to be a screw-on lid, but I'm open to other interpretations. The ziplock bag is the same one in both Susan Pynchon's photos, just from a different angle. |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 7784
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 5:38 pm: |
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Many rolled-up paper towel wads under the seat. Note small black oval on top one. When doing our solvent tests, we first realized that you've got to administer the solvent from a smaller bottle or applicator. One method that worked was to wet the end of a rolled up paper towel, then, holding it in cardboard, press it firmly to the oval you want to remove. Rolling up a piece of cardboard provided a better way to grip the paper towel without getting the stuff on fingers. When the solvent works, it lifts the oval off onto the paper towel and the oval is then on the paper towel.
 |
Jon Evans
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Jevans9
Post Number: 57
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 5:42 pm: |
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oh no Bev if those are what I think they are (2nd photo) its even more sinister. BTW I understand those photos are taken at different angles but they also seem to be taken at different times??? |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 7785
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 5:48 pm: |
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More images
 |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 7786
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 5:53 pm: |
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Times:
Photo labeled "what's this" taken in the van while Susan was photographing them in Mont Vernon. Photo labeled "What are these" also taken in the van while in Mont Vernon. Essentially the same time. Paper towel wads at the same time. Basically, if you watch the "Butch & Hoppy Chase" video #1, these are taken while Susan is getting Hoppy to show her the list of locations they are going. The red bottle pic in my last post, same thing.
Now, the photo with Frank Mevers was taken on Jan. 23, by Walter Reddy on the night they were telling him the ballots were not ballots. |
christine c reid
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ctwatcher
Post Number: 537
Registered: 12-2007
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 8:07 pm: |
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Bev, in closed thread Jon Evans added a solvent list and I added some disappearing ink pens used by quilters on which the ink lasts 48 hours or so and then disappears. There is not a black pen -- blue and purple and pink - but perhaps you may want to take a look/find out if there are other applications of this patent or pens in the company's line for other uses. It would sure be a lot easier than washing ballots if the pen color was readable by scanner. Wonder if this ink could be mixed with other inks to create a darker rapidly fading ink?
Of course, I am not sure if it has same properties on paper, or just fabric.
One question re: the ballots were ink only party removed: how did they appear? Neat edges? Smudged? How dark? Can you add photos to show what removal versus OOOPS look like?
This may be relevant to people doing audits or recounts and seeing ballot appearances that they can't understand...
I have seen a very low number (2??) of very evenly shaded but light ovals on ballots, and it was not clear to me how to reproduce. I initially thought they were blanks, and then saw the marking on very close inspection. Am wondering if this is what they look like if they come off most of the way, but not all the way. Of course, I would have to know ballot stock specs to see if directly applicable.
By the way, would it make sense to invite people to send you their ballot paper spec info, or blank ballot stock, for your experiments? Don't know if anyone would respond, but just a thought. Do you still need ballot stock/paper spec info?
ALSO - because there have been photocopied ballots, this raises another question as to whether photocopies or laser printed ballots would be easier/harder to clean without damaging the ovals' ink. One aspect of photocopying is that you can choose the paper stock you use for it and therefore may be able to change the ability to remove ink, based on that stock.
By the way, this totally creeps me out because in my polling place in February primary, ballpoint stick pens were in use, not felt tips. I complained but the pollworker was not really understanding the issue (which at the time I thought was mark readability) -hmm, think I will send this link to my town's ROV!
(Message edited by ctwatcher on March 28, 2008) |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 7789
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 8:19 pm: |
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Chris,
Some of the inks bleed a little when they don't lift properly, but some of them stay very neat-looking but fade to a light gray in the oval.
I was planning to do the demo outside due to fumes, etc., but we have had very unseasonal SNOW in Seattle this week, and hopefully it will warm up for a more extensive video session. Will definitely provide photos of all. And I forgot to test graphite -- #2 pencil. Still want to have a look at that. |
christine c reid
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ctwatcher
Post Number: 538
Registered: 12-2007
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 8:32 pm: |
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very neat-looking but fade to a light gray in the oval. Well, that's what it looked like. I have to think now if there is another way to produce that appearance. You would really have to work to make it that light and even.
Yes, graphite, meant to mention that. Good idea.
Also, removal is step one -- now you are going to re-mark. Do you use same pen as removed ink, or is it necessary to change ink types? Wonder if changing ink types to something not affected by solvent in use would allow remarking more quickly. Is dry time negligible?
I just wrote to my ROV about the ballpoint pen issue and suggested she send you blank stock or specs! Never hurts to ask... |
Jon Evans
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Jevans9
Post Number: 58
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 3 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 10:47 pm: |
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OK well... honestly, Ive approached this with the absolute intent of disproving the entire ballot washing theory. Ive pretty much exhausted my brain trying to come up with strange and unusual explanations for those photos. Here is my analysis... take it for what its worth and feel free to offer alternate explanations just in case Ive slipped over the edge here.
Anyhow... not to toss 100 gallons of gas on the theory, but having been in the printing business with a friend a few years back, the second I saw that red bottle (I tried to pass off as oil due to thinking those were separate photos at different times) my heart kind of sunk. I'm pretty darn sure that weird little short red plastic bottle in the bag is something known in the printers trade as "Glaze" remover.
I haven't been able to pin point the exact maker because commercial chemicals aren't too fancy and they all come in a generic looking bottle. However Im looking around to find a photo of a specific brand so I can show that "Glaze Remover" packaged in a similar fashion exists. NOTE - when you get into commercial chemicals websites don't provide pretty consumer photos of the product, they kind of assume you know what your buying.
"Glaze Remover" is what you might consider the "Major league" ink remover that printing companies use to clean their equipments "plates" and "pads" with. (Parts on a litho or offset press) after they run a job. And believe me those machines have a lot of ink on them after printing 2 or 3 hundred thousand full color sheets.
Anyhow, I didn't want to suggest it in the other thread because there were enough theories running a muck. Those chemicals you're checking out at the local hardware stores are for check washing noobies If you want a serious ink remover have a look at this universal beast of an ink stripper. One bottle pretty much covers it all... I dont know about the sharpie markers, but I can assure you this stuff will suck Bic pen and oil based inks off damn near anything.
The MSD sheet on one brand http://www.jellchemicals.com/Acrobat%20MSDS/MSDS%20WISCOLITE%20%5Bv5.0%5D.pdf
Notice all the ingredients? Nice mix eh? and I suspect the ingredients are of a way purer grade than the off the shelf consumer stuff. (admit thats a guess with no actual proof)
Please say it isn't so...
(Message edited by jevans9 on March 29, 2008) |
christine c reid
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ctwatcher
Post Number: 541
Registered: 12-2007
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 11:11 pm: |
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Jon, again, thanks for your printing business perspective.
Sounds like the chemical would do the job and then some. The toxicity of the chemical and the need for ventilation and odor might combine to make it NOT the one used, or used very sparingly. Are you thinking that the red bottle is the supply bottle, and tiny amounts are added to the eye dropper or squeeze dropper bottles?
This is not the "odorless paint thinner" option and its use would be dangerous, require ventilation, and potentially cause health problems used for hours on end. How would that be managed?
The bottles look like they might be sold generically by e.g. a laboratory supplier. Do container stores sell such bottles? Photographic supply houses? Would they be used in an archives for any of the work done there? Could they be recycled bottles obtained from a printer?
It's an intriguing possibility -- Can it be diluted in any way that you know of?
The extreme toxicity makes me think that if something less toxic will do the job in a less conspicuous and dangerous way, then it would be plan A. Could this be for those "ring around the collar" removals?
(Message edited by ctwatcher on March 28, 2008) |
Jon Evans
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Jevans9
Post Number: 59
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 11:29 pm: |
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Glaze remover is pretty nasty stuff.. My personal observations (havening used it on many an occasion) lead me to believe that removing a little spot of ink on a paper sheet, using an applicator bottle (or similar) and of course having the vehicles windows opened a tad... lead me to the conclusion that Bevs suggestion is not only plausible, but apparently probable.
No idea on the "Stain Stick" idea I kicked out, best guess says that would leave some sort of obvious stain on the paper?
Sounds like the chemical would do the job and then some. The toxicity of the chemical and the need for ventilation and odor might combine to make it NOT the one used, or used very sparingly. Are you thinking that the red bottle is the supply bottle, and tiny amounts are added to the eye dropper or squeeze dropper bottles?
I probably did a disservice to the discussion in the other thread by posting the warning information printed on a container of acetone. Realistically these chemicals aren’t something you want to pour gallons of in a bucket and stand directly over all day long breathing while smoking a cigarette. Don’t forget those warning label are written by a bunch of people more concerned with “C.Y.A.” than your safety. Acetone is nasty, but it’s the same thing nail polish remove is made of. I’m pretty safe to assume that the ladies posting on this thread have all used and inhaled nail polish remover fumes… the fact that you’re not dead indicates that being sensible with the stuff probably doesn’t prove a serious health risk.
This is not the "odorless paint thinner" option and its use would be dangerous, require ventilation, and potentially cause health problems used for hours on end. How would that be managed?
I think a partially opened window and tiny quantities are enough to keep the “hazard” level to a minimum. My opinion is that Bev’s experiment is 100% plausible.
The bottles look like they might be sold generically by e.g. a laboratory supplier. Do container stores sell such bottles? Photographic supply houses? Would they be used in an archives for any of the work done there? Could they be recycled bottles obtained from a printer?
You can get tiny applicator bottles all over the place. Search eBay for “Applicator Bottle” and you will find all shapes, colors and sizes.
It's an intriguing possibility -- Can it be diluted in any way that you know of?
I have no experience diluting acetone or “Glaze” remover.
Ive stated it in one way or another a few times, my gut instinct tells me "Butch and Hoppy" know or work with a few different printing companies and/or have friends or associates in the business. (perhaps at the company that prints NH ballots). I personally don't believe this is the first time around on the "magic ballot buss" for these two. If the theory Bev stated here is true, developing it clearly takes a bit of time, money and experimentation. I don't think this was a dry run for B & H. I had the feeling their biggest problem was not knowing what to say when people showed up and started asking questions.
(Message edited by jevans9 on March 29, 2008) |
Betsy "B" Lindsey
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: A_voter
Post Number: 40
Registered: 2-2008
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 11:36 pm: |
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OMG Bev, you are a wealth of information. I remember watching the clip of you all doing a video of the contents of the van. It seems like I remember you saying to be sure and get a shot of the ziplocs...now it makes sense.
I also wonder what you get when you add up:
sold out (5) denatured alcohol bottles
+ballot boxes matching the hospital next door's boxes
+no videos allowed of the hospital next door
+the opened, unlocked "archive" building (next door to the hospital) the next morning when you all got there.
Something smells, and it's not the solvents...and it could be coming from a vacant room at the hospital.
BTW, have you received everything you requested from NH?
P.S. Color me ignorant, but what do the slits on the right side of all the boxes represent?
P.P.S. Is it normal for the counties to send boxes with the # of democrat and # of republican ballots in them? |
christine c reid
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ctwatcher
Post Number: 542
Registered: 12-2007
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 11:37 pm: |
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Jon, in printing did you ever have to use the ink formulation databases? Based on Catherine's comment about stain removal and Eberhard Faber, I first tried to search for that info. I happened on the "ink formulation" databases, (Google it and see the few that come up) quite expensive, and perhaps used by chemical companies. They may not refer to ink in the pen sense, maybe more printers' ink. However, the takehome mesg. is that there may be some sort of finite cataloguing or characterization of different ink formulations for pens. That would make the process of looking at which ink pen is removed by what solvent more straightforward, based on its components.
the other aspect of glaze - suppose it were glaze, would it leave an odor on the ballot? |
Betsy "B" Lindsey
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: A_voter
Post Number: 41
Registered: 2-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 11:49 pm: |
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Wow Jon, Great information! Probably another of my dumb questions, but:
1) would the chemicals you're talking about also take off the printed part on the paper?
2) would the glaze remover leave a dull place on the ballot?
3) does that spray can (not in the ziploc) have any significance?
(Message edited by A_Voter on March 28, 2008)
(Message edited by A_Voter on March 28, 2008) |
Jon Evans
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Jevans9
Post Number: 60
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 12:03 am: |
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Besty no questions are dumb
The answer is no that chemical would not take the printed part off. Commercial ink is generally dried using a special process involving a high intensity ultra violet light source. Ink out of a pen or a marker dries from being exposed to air. Short answer is the chemistry is different.
Lame example but... you can add water to hard dirt and make mud, but you cant add water to dry cement and make wet cement.
"3) does that spray can (not in the ziploc) have any significance?"
I looked at that can as best I could. I believe that is a can of Satin finish spray paint. (Brand and color unknown). I have no opinion at this point as to its importance or lack of.
(Message edited by jevans9 on March 29, 2008) |
christine c reid
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ctwatcher
Post Number: 543
Registered: 12-2007
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 5:03 am: |
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Oh, man, Jon, you just opened another question for Bev's experiment on the remarking.
Can the washed ballots be remarked within the oval outlines without the detection of an anomaly (and if detectable, how detectable), or does partial removal of the ovals necessitate that washed ballots be marked not "perfectly colored in", but by deliberately slightly overwriting the oval to cover any removal of the ink on oval. Would be interesting to know if any counterse/observers picked up on any patterns in marking from town to town.
Jon, maybe the three bottles represent three different solvents, and the glaze stuff you are talking about could be the magic solvent for the Eberhard Faber pens? |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 4837
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 5:22 am: |
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Does the "8A" bottle have any relevance to this discussion? (It's not in the plastic bag but is beside it.) |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 4838
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 5:39 am: |
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Jon to answer one of your earlier questions/observations that B & H were probably not doing this for the first time, on one of Bev's earlier posts (or perhaps on a video) she mentioned that B&H had been doing ALL of NH's ballot transport for many years.
Whatever was going on this time it was probably not the first time. I too had the impression, that B & H's only problem "this time" was dealing with the unexpected observers, their questions and their video recorders. (And now Dave Scanlon/NH wants to introduce legislation to prevent observation. Hmmm.)
***What does all this mean for those who are emphasizing that optical scan ballots are the answer? What does it mean for paper ballot recounts and audits?
I am stunned, Christine, at your mention of light-colored gray ovals in your one audit observation experience--before anyone here indicated that such a phenomenon was possible or that it could mean anything. It is such damning evidence in light of this discussion.
Whenever I think I suspect just how bad things are, Bev brings evidence to light that demonstrates that the truth is likely far worse than I ever imagined. When it comes to elections, our ability to "imagine the worst" always falls short of reality. |
christine c reid
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ctwatcher
Post Number: 545
Registered: 12-2007
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 6:18 am: |
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Well, Catherine, what I think the whole thing brings up is not just light evenly colored ovals, but potentially ballots colored outside the oval outlines - how common is it, and does a high quantity of sloppily colored ovals suggest ballot washing -- in conjunction with what other evidence? Or is it the default/not the exception?
In NH, what would be interesting to understand about the choice of ballot counting method for the recount is whether they used a double count with e.g. mark and read followed by sort and stack. Why is a particular method used?
In sort and stack, ballots for one particular candidate appear one after another. In mark and read, they appear mixed together.
Sort and stack might be more revelatory of a high degree of consistency in the way ballots are marked for a particular candidate. The number of consistent marks for a particular candidate might sugg. a change in results for that candidate. An entire candidate's run with pretty inconsistent marks might suggest that candidate is the one whose ballots were washed. A loser with inconsistent markiings coupled with more consistent markings for several other candidates might suggest destruction of a runner up's evidence of popularity, such that such a candidate would not proceed to other primaries.
Observers could take note of this fact and look at sort and stack steps with a different training of the eye.
In the case where I observed gray ovals, it's very interesting -- and yet I do not hold the hypothesis that it did occur. The ballots were completely compromised and it is among the options that an investigator might consider, to be sure. First step would have been to get the ballots examined.
It's my take that we (public officials, citizens, etc.) must proceed with care and deliberation looking at laws, procedures and logstics to see where the conditions for compromise may in some cases be there. It is not necessary to find compromise to change the law.
IOW -- determination and perserverance at uncovering the worst is critical. Imagining it? Hmm, I question whether we have good enough imaginations! 
I am of course sobered by what is possible here. Basically, Bev Harris is breaking the magician's code and revealing how a magic trick is, or could be, performed.
May the audience never be the same.
I could get alarmed at how messed up everything is, to be sure. I have spent a lot of time worrying about the state of things before I actually started to take on learning and taking action. I would hope anyone who is alarmed would not e.g. "wring their hands" but get out there and take action. Single actions by citizens in this area DO make a big difference, in a way that other individual acts such as recycling your bottles does not make nearly as evident.
So - lurkers: NOW are you worried? Get involved, join us! Just show up for an audit and share the experiences, for better or worse. Just do one FOIA document request. It all helps. |
christine c reid
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ctwatcher
Post Number: 547
Registered: 12-2007
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 6:54 am: |
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Interesting link that may provide some leads on e.g. ink recipes or other ink related minutiae that comes in handy -- I found it by looking for info about how museums preserve items, thinking that their cleaning materials might be of interest.
http://www.knaw.nl/ecpa/ink/links.html |
Jon Evans
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Jevans9
Post Number: 61
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 9:25 am: |
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Election Reality TV - Butch & Hoppy Chase 1 sec.2 @ 7:08
Nice choice of beverages. Concord Hospital??
Safe to assume that Concord Hospital would likely stock applicator bottles and alcohol?
(Message edited by jevans9 on March 29, 2008) |
Betsy "B" Lindsey
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: A_voter
Post Number: 42
Registered: 2-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 10:20 am: |
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Concord Hospital? Hmmmmm. |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 7790
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 9:41 pm: |
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The "8A" can is a V8 can, don't you think?
While we wait for the order to arrive to complete our experiment, I am preparing two more videos, should have them up by Sunday evening.
First is a day with Butch and Hoppy, basically just nine minutes of road footage.
The second will contain Hoppy's statements about the scrutiny and suspicion that he and Butch have been subjected to.
Hopefully the experimentation can be completed by mid-week this week.
Can anyone interpret what is at Frank Mevers's feet? Whatever those items are, they weren't there earlier and weren't there the next day. |
Jon Evans
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Jevans9
Post Number: 62
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 11:25 pm: |
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