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| (National) 11/7/2012 - AMERICA'S CLAI... |
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| Author |
Message |
    
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 11737
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? 
Votes: 10 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 7, 2012 - 12:50 pm: | 
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Perhaps one of the oddest moments of all during last night's live election coverage was what happened to Karl Rove on Fox Network News.
With Florida still too close to call and hundreds of thousands of votes still out in Ohio (including a large hunk of votes in Romney strongholds), and with a spread of about 100,000 votes separating the candidates in Ohio, Fox called Ohio for Obama. Karl Rove arranged to come on the Fox network to voice his rebuttal.
Now, whatever you think of Rove, I think most of us agree that he's a numbers guy. His numbers didn't support the calling of the state of Ohio at that point in time. When he explained his reasoning, the Fox anchor quickly shut him down. "It's a science" he was told.
Based not on actual votes, but on projections from a single private entity, the National Election Pool (NEP), we were all told what the election results were going to be. When Rove pulled out his notes and calculations, he was basically told "Shut up, this is a science."
But is that what your vote really is? A science project, to be viewed only by experts inside a nesting set of black boxes, completely out of public view?
If we are to have real self-governance, we need to be able to authenticate each essential step in our own elections -- without need for special expertise to explain to us what the result is. What more centralized, privatized form of declaring a result is there than to commission the NEP to provide a single set of statistics to ALL of the TV networks for a declaration of results without human eyes ever looking at a single ballot.
The media called the election in Tennessee just 11 minutes after the polls closed and by the way, exit polls had already been cancelled in Tennessee because, it was explained, everyone already knew who the winner was going to be so why bother with the expense. Even the voting machines, opaque and controlled by whatever their programmers put into them, had not yet issued results printouts. Is this the new, NEW method for pretending at democracy?
Washington State, where I live, is a forced absentee state, where 100% of the votes are now absentee ballots, which must be postmarked on Election Day. I placed my ballot in the post office at 2 pm. There are no exit polls, because there are no polling places. Apparently a few phone calls now substitute for actual exit polling (to people with land lines? That's an increasingly elderly demographic). Perhaps 40% of all ballots in Washington have not even been counted yet, but we've been told the results.
In California, typically 25% of the votes are counted after Election Day, yet results have been announced. That's a million uncounted ballots in Los Angeles alone. We have no clue what is on those ballots but we've been told not to worry about it. The stats guys have issued their verdict.
Forget voting machines, programmed by insiders to do whatever they do. Let's just skip counting the votes altogether and use statistics.
Creepy little way to run an election, if you ask me.
The public must be able to see and authenticate these four essential steps for an election to be public, democratic, and valid: (1) Who can vote (voter list); (2) Who did vote (3) The original count; (4) Chain of custody.
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Trish Mink
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Trish0220
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2012
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 7, 2012 - 5:34 pm: |
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I was sickened as I watched the states being called as the states were being called for Obama and there was 1% percent of the vote that was actually being counted. I am confused by the company in Spain counting votes.
In Arizona I know today there are 10's of 1000's of ballots waiting to be counted, we need a new system. I would like to work with getting the Electoral College abolished and get a new way of accountability in counting the votes.
I don't even trust that Mitt lost at this point. Do you know of groups that are working with congress or wanting to so we can get this started? |
Daniel Silverstein
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Objectiveview
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2012
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, November 8, 2012 - 6:13 am: |
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I agree with the aforementioned concerns and would like to find out how I may help. I would propose the following system: paper ballots which are scanned, the voter gettting a printed receipt, and the ballots are hand counted in a videotaped manner by concerned citizen volunteers. An active tally is counted on a large blackboard as each vote is counted. These tallys are then saved, posted publically on the door of the election site and online. Multiple "memory cards" of the machine are saved and the computer count is a back-up for the hand-count with access allowed by any concerned citizen. Representatives of each candidate that is running, e.g. the local Republican coalition and the Democratic coalition may obtain a memory card at the polling station. The "central tabulator" is again a group of citizen volunteers who in a videotaped manner add up the polling results from the various districts. This is labor intensive and may take a few days but if there are motivated citizens who are willing to do the work it can be done. |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 11738
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 2 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, November 8, 2012 - 6:53 am: |
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Hi Trish,
Thanks for capturing the central point of the article. If the American public continues to accept the idea that election results will be declared and conceded based on statistics instead of actually counting the votes, we are in real trouble.
Regarding the company in Spain - technically, they didn't "count" the votes, but their subsidiary, SOE software, REPORTED the votes. They say they handle 1400 jurisdictions in 26 states. But even those votes were not really used in calling the result. Instead, an amalgamation of statistics produced by an opaque division (NEP) within a single private company (Edison Research) was used to call the results.
Regarding the electoral college, that's a mixed situation. It does serve a purpose, but right now one of its side effects is to encourage premature declaration of electoral winners.
We should not "trust" that any candidate won or lost without the public ability to authenticate the actual evidence.
Working with congress will probably not be effective at this point, since there is no upside for members of congress to sponsor actual transparency in the process that put them in power. The courts are proving to be a more fruitful avenue. Litigation for transparency requires two things:
1) Lots of money ($100,000+ per case, only occasionally recoverable if you win)
and even more important
2) Attorneys who have a winning track record. We sometimes get cranks and crap trying to litigate these crucial constitutional rights issues; there are, however, a small but growing number of attorneys who do have the expertise and balls to win. Among these I mention Rob McGuire (Colorado); Bill Reisner (Arizona) and Greg Luke (California). They understand the rights issues and are willing to take on the big boys, and they frequently win these tough cases.
Of course, the unspoken third thing needed is honest, gutsy judges. There are still plenty of those around, though you can't always count on getting a good judge.
The public must be able to see and authenticate these four essential steps for an election to be public, democratic, and valid: (1) Who can vote (voter list); (2) Who did vote (3) The original count; (4) Chain of custody.
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Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 11739
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 3 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, November 8, 2012 - 6:59 am: |
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Hi Daniel,
You have many good points. I always steer clear of the concept of "Democratic and Republican" coalitions, observers. The rights belong to the public, not the parties, and the public is defined in freedom of information law to mean "any person". I notice that you only included party-related terms in one sentence, and focused on public right to see and document in the rest.
Thanks for your input here.
For chain of custody reasons, it is also key to eliminate no-fault absentee voting, rolling that back to need-only, to use neighborhood polling places, and to do the counting and authentication at the polling place before any ballots or electronic items are moved.
The public must be able to see and authenticate these four essential steps for an election to be public, democratic, and valid: (1) Who can vote (voter list); (2) Who did vote (3) The original count; (4) Chain of custody.
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Janis Costello Browning
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Js121
Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2012
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, November 8, 2012 - 11:31 am: |
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There are a couple organizations gearing up for reform... Center for Media and Democracy is reaching out to various organizations (AFL, CommonCause, etc). movetoamend and nomorestolenelections. I think the people have finally realized that the election is over; but, the battle has just begun. |
Randy McMillan
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Mcdesign
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2012
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, November 8, 2012 - 4:42 pm: |
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After reading about the Romney family's financial ties to Hart Intercivic voting machines I was expecting a repeat of the 2000 and 2004 elections and sent this information out to as many law enforcement agencies as possible including the Romney campaign.
I believe we would be better off going back to the mechanical voting machines that I first voted on in the late 1970's. These things were extremely well built, accurate and could hold a phenomenal amount of votes and that is why they were destroyed. Some still exist in museums or are owned by private citizens. |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 11743
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, November 8, 2012 - 5:38 pm: |
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Hi Janis and Randy, and welcome to Black Box Voting.
Randy, a small quibble about the Romney ties to Hart Intercivic. Technically, the Romney family had ownership in a separate subsidiary of the fund that purchased Hart Intercivic. But that is a difference without a difference, because (1) The firm that bought Hart is made up almost entirely of Bain guys, who donated and bundled almost exclusively for Romney and (2) There are hundreds, if not thousands of private equity funds, so why THIS fund buying THIS voting machine company? It may not be a direct linear relationship, but there is clearly the appearance of impropriety.
You are right that the lever machines (while not nearly as good as public hand counts of paper ballots) are much preferable to software-driven systems. It is possible, without special expertise, to authenticate that the lever mechanism is delivering votes to the correct candidate and rigging them requires a retail, machine by machine approach. It's certainly been done, but they are less dangerous than software-driven systems.
The public must be able to see and authenticate these four essential steps for an election to be public, democratic, and valid: (1) Who can vote (voter list); (2) Who did vote (3) The original count; (4) Chain of custody.
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Trish Mink
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Trish0220
Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2012
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, November 9, 2012 - 12:44 am: |
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If that is the truth, how can Barack Obama be president? People are rehashing what happened, and I wonder how people know? What if he was declared the winner, when he was not? Will it come out? We still have 10's of 1000's of ballots that are provisional uncounted in Arizona.
Do people know that a company estimates our votes, and are they really ever counted? If not we do not have democracy. Though I feel like one of the few that cares. |
Teresa Kao
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Gangor
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2012
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, November 9, 2012 - 12:20 pm: |
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Trish, I certainly didn't know that. It is not that I was certain that one or the other candidate would win, but we all expected it to be very close. But it wasn't. The election was called early in the evening. The swing states went to Obama. None of the others mattered. End of story. But the whole thing doesn't quite pass the smell test. Young people voting in even greater numbers again for Obama? There are no jobs and huge college debt. Millions of white voters not voting at all? Districts where Obama got 99% of the vote? Karl Rove completely wrong about numbers? KRAUTHAMMER wrong?
So after discovering this website and reading Bev's article, I've clicked through to see how this is all tabulated. the NEP is merely a consortium of the major TV news networks. They contract with another outfit to do exit polls (forget their name). Associated Press is thousands of newspapers that subscribe, who employ "stringers" to every county to get numbers of votes tallied and call them in. Everything in the vote reporting process is under the complete control of media. And all media is owned by a small handful of conglomerates.
We know that Obama has had excellent success concealing virtually everything about his past. What has come out is never covered by media. We citizens are at the complete mercy of what media reports as "fact".
Much was learned from the 2000 election. Don't make it too close. Don't let it depend on one swing state. Be bold.
I have heard not one conservative on any program question the results of this election. |
Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Realkurtb
Post Number: 218
Registered: 6-2011
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, November 9, 2012 - 1:47 pm: |
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One quibble on the mechanical lever machines - the manufacture of replacement parts ended in the 1970's and they had to be kept running by cannibalization since then.
It was like a giant game of chicken, with counties waiting each other out until one blinked and went to another system, and then the remaining counties would swoop in like a pack of wolves devouring the other county's old lever machines for parts.
It was getting desperate toward the end. |
Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Realkurtb
Post Number: 219
Registered: 6-2011
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, November 9, 2012 - 1:56 pm: |
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Also, Bev, while I agree about attorneys, I am an unusual case. I litigate pro se when I can get standing, and I nearly always win. But I spent 4 years doing elections for a living from 2001-2005. I tried and won my first 3 elections cases BEFORE THAT, in 1991.
I'm not an attorney, but I do beat them in elections cases with astonishing regularity.
The downside is I can't help somebody else - that would be practicing law, I have to have standing myself. I also am an uncanny predictor of what will and will not fly in PA courts. I read every election case that is litigated in PA voraciously. I'm the only person I know who predicted PA's state redistricting would be struck down. I also knew the case BBVer Alan Brau and 9 others filed would result in exactly one 'win' - a re-examination of the DRE's and not one iota more. And so there it stands.
Novel arguments and legal theories are always high risk and high cost. Knowing where stare decisis leads is far more fruitful turf. |
Julianne D Eaker
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Julianned
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2012
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 3:03 pm: |
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I do not believe Obama won and as I read all this I really don't believe it. I've read where people were given money on the scene to vote. Others said they voted 4-5 times. One precinct in Pa.had 108% of voters to vote. WHAT. We need a do over. I am so tired of dishonesty in the oval office |
Trish Mink
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Trish0220
Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2012
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 1:34 pm: |
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We need to get angry and call them out, I am just not sure how to do it. |
Mike LaBonte
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Mike_labonte
Post Number: 647
Registered: 12-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 8:02 am: |
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Does anyone have a favorite source for getting the final election results for all states, when they are ready? |
Dubya
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Dubya
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2012
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 4:41 pm: |
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Hi.
In regards to SOE..SOE software has now been sold to a company named SCYTL, owned by George Soros, headquartered in Spain.
Yes, George Soros! BO's number one supporter and source of the POTUS largest corp donations. WTF??
...and I'm the "conspiracy theorist"...HA!?
THIS WHOLE THING STINKS!! Peace. |
Starchild
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Starchildsf
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2012
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2012 - 1:13 am: |
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Fantastic blog post. It amazes me that more people don't care how little guarantee there is that votes in this country are not completely rigged.
"The public must be able to see and authenticate these four essential steps for an election to be public, democratic, and valid: (1) Who can vote (voter list); (2) Who did vote (3) The original count; (4) Chain of custody."
Those words should be prominently displayed outside every Registrar of Voters and Election Department office.
I heard that Libertarian candidate Gary Johnson was polling 5% in Ohio just a few days before the election, but he is said to have gotten what, less than 2% of the vote?
Who knows what the actual results were, or who actually won. Maybe Obama did, maybe he didn't. I don't trust the official results until the process is transparent. |
Mike LaBonte
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Mike_labonte
Post Number: 648
Registered: 12-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2012 - 12:32 pm: |
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To "learn" that George Soros owns Scytl and that they "process" all of our votes one need only subscribe to that fine source of journalism, the Spam Email News Network ;)
http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/scytl.asp |
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