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| Actions I've Taken-Frustrated |
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Sharon C. Aungpe
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Saungpe50
Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2012
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 7:38 pm: | 
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I'm frustrated.
It's hard for me to let it go when I know there's been massive fraud.
Good Evening, I'm new to this forum. So, you'll just have to forgive me for my ramblings.
I have sent letters to both my US Senators as well as my Congressional representative. I've signed petitions for a recount of the 2012 election. Yes, I've gotten very polite responses from all my elected officials. But I just can't seem to step forward, and take action. Yet, it seems my efforts are sooooo futile. Of course, I do not have any legal training. Maybe, if I did, I would be more knowledgeable.
I also PRAY daily for this country. "If my people, which are called by my name; shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways;then I will heal hear from heaven, and forgive their, and heal their land."
II Chronicles 7:14
Recently, I got into a debate with a dear friend. She thinks I should let all of this go. "Obama won the election. Now, let's come together. If anyone cheated, it was Romney."
I'm scratching my head, "Usually, it's the winner that's found cheating--not the loser. That's how they won."
However, it's hard for me to let it go when I know there's been massive fraud. (But I'm working on it for my own peace of mind. I'm still struggling.)
Here's something that I've read of recently. I'm going to conduct my OWN research into the matter.
1 SENATOR and 1 CONGRESSMAN can stop the election. They only have to FILE a written OBJECTION with the JOINT SESSION in CONGRESS in January. Then Congress would be CONSTITUTIONALLY AND LEGALLY required to debate the objection. (That's why signing those petitions are supposed to be important.)
However, even if it were POSSIBLE, none of them seem BOLD enough to take that step. They all have their "political offices" to protect.
Maybe, other like-minded people, have suggestions.
Whatever happens, I'm glad that I took some kind of action, no matter how small. At least, I got a chance to make my voice heard.
Thank you for listening.
Sharon
} |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 11751
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 9:49 am: |
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Hi Sharon, and welcome to Black Box Voting.
First, I am so pleased to see you taking personal action. The first step when you witness a social problem is to do SOMETHING. Then the next steps become clearer.
You write that you signed petitions for a recount of the election. Specific procedures are in each state's election statutes for how a recount can be achieved; I am not aware of any state that allows the voters themselves to obtain a recount. Only a candidate can get a recount, so if working on a recount petition, it pretty much needs to go to the candidate. In some states minor-party candidates, like Libertarians and Greens, can get a recount, and they have stepped forward in the past to recount elections when there is general public dissatisfaction. In many other states, however, a recount can only be obtained with a very close spread, between candidate #1 and candidate #2.
As for writing your legislators, they typically are extremely reluctant to investigate or take any action that could spill on themselves, or create any public distrust in their own election.
Now here's the statement of yours that troubles me, because I am hearing it a lot:
" it's hard for me to let it go when I know there's been massive fraud. "
That kind of statement needs to be backed up with specifics (places, type of fraud,) and those specifics need to be backed up with video, photos, or documents. For example, "There were only nine voters in a St. Lucie County FL precinct, but 900 votes" is something you can hang your hat on. "There was massive fraud in the Black precincts of Philadelphia" doesn't really tell anyone anything, and functions only to lose credibility.
So my first question to you, before going any further, is can you please provide links to specifics, not second and third-hand anecdotes, but instead, links or sources who can provide us with documents, video, or photographs of specific fraud, specific impossible numbers, specific instances of vote suppression?
I'm not saying there wasn't any, but I am saying that as a first step, to become at least a little less frustrated, communication of the problem using specifics and documentation will help tremendously.
Thanks for writing, and I am listening.
The public must be able to see and authenticate these four essential steps for an election to be public, democratic, and valid: (1) Who can vote (voter list); (2) Who did vote (3) The original count; (4) Chain of custody.
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Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 11752
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 9:54 am: |
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(By the way, I'll be moving this post to the mailbag forum, where it will show up in left column of home page for more visibility.)
The public must be able to see and authenticate these four essential steps for an election to be public, democratic, and valid: (1) Who can vote (voter list); (2) Who did vote (3) The original count; (4) Chain of custody.
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Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Realkurtb
Post Number: 234
Registered: 6-2011
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 12:43 pm: |
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Sharon,
I feel for you. You are a Bucks Countian apparently. Your county election director, Deena Dean, is a friend and one of the best county ED's anywhere. I used to do the same job in Berks, and now live in Lancaster Co. near the Berks line.
Yes, there is some voter fraud. The numbers are unmistakable. Is it enough to tilt this election? No, I don't think so.
About the numbers: All legislative districts have similar populations. Yet, throughout the bulk of Pennsylvania, inner city districts REPEATEDLY are amoong the lowest in total turnout of voters, UNTIL you look at Philadelphia. There, something "magical" happens. Voters vote at MAGNIFICENT rates, much higher than even in the wealthy suburbs that lead turnout in the other 66 counties. Why? You tell me.
The 200th legislative district (Philly) had THREE TIMES as many voters in 2010 as did the 127th (in Reading). THREE TIMES?!??! By the way, in both legislative districts, the incumbent Democrat ran unopposed, and in Reading the Congressional race was a hot one, and in Philly the Congressional race was not competitive.
C'mon. The Philly turnout numbers don't pass the "smell test". But Voter ID cannot fix the problem without guaranteed observation by both parties.
So then if I believe all that, and I do, why do I not think the result was altered? More math. Romney won my old stompin' grounds, Berks County, by only about 1,000 votes. By contrast, in 2010, the Republican Senator won Berks by about 12,500 and the Republican Governor won by 21,000. There just were WAAAAY more Democratic voters statewide than usual this time. City (all cities) "casual voters" bothered to show up, unlike usually. Philly's shady numbers didn't tip the outcome, they just added magnitude. |
Sharon C. Aungpe
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Saungpe50
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2012
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 6:13 pm: |
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Bev, I'm not talking necessarily about "Pennsylvania" in specifics, but the country as a totality. Yes, I've been reading up on this one.
There was a Romney rally about 3 miles from my home. 30,000 plus. I could hear the crowds from upstairs in my house. (The weather was nice then and I could open my window for fresh air.)On a local level, there was great enthusiasm for Romney. Naturally, that DOESN'T prove anything...but it does show you something about the trends.
However, I digress.......
Here's an interesting link someone else sent me today. I'm going to research it as to truth.
http://www.westernjournalism.com/fbi-may-impound-pro-obama-voting-machines/
(Just one EXAMPLE of the LINKS. I'm a constant reader. You're lucky if I watch an hour of television a week.)
Honestly, I hope there's some substance to this article. Why? Maybe, it will put the "back and forth" between individuals and political parties to rest.
The petition I signed for a "national petition." I'll have to find the link and post it later. Yes, it was sent to my "elected officials."
Of course, they gave me another set of "polite letters."
Just a thought, for whatever it's worth. (And in today's economy with the shrinking dollar--not very much)....
The FBI are professionals. They don't necessarily. have a "dog in this fight." It's my understanding that various "local officials" contacted them after quarantining the voting machines.
The FBI cannot just go in and "impound property." (In this case, voting machines.) There are a set of procedures. Certainly, there needs to be some kind of validated reason for such a actin. After all, we do not want to become a "police state."
Will it be enough to overturn the election, I seriously DOUBT it. However, it MIGHT be one SMALL step towards restoring faith in the "voting system.
http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/the-big-list-of-vote-fraud-reports/
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/sovereign-american-citizen-voters-for-honest/
(This is just ONE of about 4 or 5 petitions that are going around.)
Honestly, I do NOT believe that this IS the one I signed. (Again, someone else sent it to ME!)
There's even a petition going around that demands the president be IMPEACHED.
(I DID NOT SIGN THAT ONE for my own personal reasons.)
All you have to do is the research. If you're vocal enough, people will START sending stuff to you.
Thanks for answering my thread.
More importantly, I'm sure that we ALL love this country, otherwise, we wouldn't be having these deep discussions.
My father used to say. "We always make it better for the next generation."
God Bless him, he had worked 50 hours a week, toiled, and sacrificed, along with my mother so I could go to college...and live in a beautiful place like Bucks County.
Bucks County living was a dream for him...but a reality for me.
Likewise, I want to leave something special for my daughter, Elizabeth, and my son, Billy.
} |
Sharon C. Aungpe
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Saungpe50
Post Number: 5
Registered: 11-2012
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 6:39 pm: |
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Dear Kurt,
http://www.westernjournalism.com/fbi-may-impound-pro-obama-voting-machines/
Somebody sent me this interesting little piece of reading. Like I told Bev, I'm NOT a television person. I'm quite a reader. You can read my post to her as to why I think this is a good idea.
For the most part, I BELIEVE that Bucks County election officials are quite honest. They've never given me, or my husband, any reason to doubt their integrity.
On election day, my husband and I were outside raking the leaves to the curb in anticipation for the township truck to come and get rid of them. (Yes, it's our annual fall ritual.)A neighbor walking her dog--Lance, the most popular pooch on the stree--stopped to speak with us. She'd just spoken to another neighbor. It was incredible. At Afton Elementary, the line was extended out the door. People were waiting almost a half hour to vote.
Yes, and you bring up how precincts in PHILLY come out in such MAGICAL NUMBERS. I'd love to have the answer to that ONE!
As regards to the interesting link above--Do I believe that the election will be overturned?
NO, I seriously doubt it.
But it might be a small step in WAKING UP the voting public.
In my heart of hearts, I believe it was much closer in Pennsylvania than indicated. Would have Obama won? YES...
But there was a lot of enthusiasm and energy for Romney here in Bucks County.
I'd love to interact with someone from Western Pennsylvania COAL COUNTRY! (Just to see things through their lens. I don't get to visit that part of the state very often. Like everyone else, I'm just busy...)
We do have a beautiful state!
I was born in Ohio, lived for awhile in Massachuetts, North Carolina, before my father settled the family in South Carolina.
My husband and I have settled here in Bucks County...
and we've fallen in love with Pennsylvania.
(Of course, we've been here since 1994.)
Sharon
} |
Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Realkurtb
Post Number: 236
Registered: 6-2011
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, November 30, 2012 - 8:45 am: |
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Ah Sharon, again I feel your pain. Because of what I DID for a living (county election director, including being the first Chairman of PA's HAVA State Plan Advisory Board) and what I DO for a living (Research Analyst for the PA General Assembly), I have had cause to study PA voting patterns VERY closely over time, as closely as anyone anywhere.
We are becoming ever more and more segregated from each other, BY POLITICAL IDEOLOGY, even aside from some pretty creative gerrymandering in our state. We have separated oursleves into PLU's and PLT's voluntarily, hence voting with our feet.
Note: PLU = People Like Us; PLT = People Like Them
Yes, yes, yes, Sharon. In Romney country, Romney was "en fuego!" People couldn't WAIT to get to the polls. Lancaster County/Brecknock/Bowmansville (my precinct) had SOLID lines all day and went for Romney by 1280-399 with 30 going to Minor Party candidates and "Write-Ins" (probably attempts to elect some unknown guy named Ron Paul as a Pennsylvania Presidential Elector  ).
Less than 10 miles away, there is another precinct with which I have some history, named Berks County/Reading/1st Ward (I've made the trip on a bicycle, while a younger man, and it's WAY under 10 miles), and the vote there was Obama's by 454 to 68 with 4 others. There are tons of other nearby precincts that had similar results to the Reading one. Out in Lancaster County, where the conservatives roam, there are MANY FEWER polling sites. (Yes, Virginia [and Ohio], in Pennsylvania, typical Republicans wait in FAR longer lines than typical Democrats do.) As that rarest of creatures, a Lancaster County Democrat, I got to wait in a "Republican area's" lines. Longest I've ever waited to vote in my entire life - about 30-40(ish) minutes.
The point is, Sharon, you and I never even SAW the massively negative and highly targeted anti-Romney messages being bombarded upon urban dwellers in their mail, their alternative language media, their local social clubs and, yes, even their churches.
We can barely even CONCEIVE of how differently our urban counterparts perceive the world in which we live. When I go into the inner cities, as I do in my work, I am both amazed and horrified frequently by what I witness there. It is a world unto itself, one both strange and fearsome. But people DO live there, and when roused by political machines, they VOTE!
We are a thoroughly ideologically segregated society. It is the subject of the book I am writing:
The Uncivil War: How Irreconcilable Differences Between Rural and Urban Americans Threaten Our Ability to Function as a Nation.
But I don't even have to read my own writings. All I have to do is look around the floor in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives. That one state could elect so many people who couldn't be elected "dog catcher" in another district under ANY circumstances, is amazement enough. In one sense, they're colleagues. In another, they're not even from the same planet. |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 11754
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, November 30, 2012 - 9:13 am: |
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Kurt, that is a book I eagerly await.
Because I do field work and interact extensively with everyone, regardless of political viewpoints, I see exactly what you report -- people on esch side truly believe that everyone thinks just like them, and that any political result to the contrary simply must be rigged.
It is a difference in world view.
The vast array of choices we now have in choosing television stations, radio stations, and blogs that agree with our own point of view is creating more and more polarization. Another thing that is contributing to polarization is when pundits, writers, and activists discourage others from doing their own critical thinking. People are encouraged to believe exactly what they hear if it is from someone in the good guy camp, and avoid anything they hear if it is from the bad guy camp.
This childish approach devolves into following heroes and vanquishing villains, instead of analyzing structural issues and practicing evidence-based and logical thinking and discussion.
The public must be able to see and authenticate these four essential steps for an election to be public, democratic, and valid: (1) Who can vote (voter list); (2) Who did vote (3) The original count; (4) Chain of custody.
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Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Realkurtb
Post Number: 237
Registered: 6-2011
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, November 30, 2012 - 2:00 pm: |
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The basic rule I've learned is:
People who live in a place you either wouldn't want to, or can't afford to, live in, probably don't think or act like you do.
When you break it down that simply, it's almost "face-palm obvious".
Same thing applies to other cultural experiences, not just residence locations. |
Sharon C. Aungpe
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Saungpe50
Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2012
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, December 2, 2012 - 7:25 pm: |
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Topic: Who Can Vote.
Basically, Kurt you're right. We do think differently on our life experiences. However, I still want the confidence that elections are fair.
Structurally, why don't we have the same rules nationally. For example, some states allow early voting, others don't. A few states allow same day registration, others don't. Some states require voter ID, others don't. Not even the equipment used is the same, from precinct to precinct, let alone state to state. In short, we're all over the map. There doesn't seem to be any uniformity.
Don't these rules/procedures have an effect on who votes. Even how the votes are counted.
Maybe, I'm wrong. But I feel if there were more uniformity, there might be more confidence in the system.
What do you think?} |
Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Realkurtb
Post Number: 238
Registered: 6-2011
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, December 3, 2012 - 8:28 am: |
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Sharon,
I've long ago stopped worshipping at the altar of uniformity. "One size does not fit all." There are reasons for that.
1) To begin with, federal jurisdiction over elections is extraordinarily limited. It is, at the highest, a state issue. {Note: you can never vote for a non-Pennsylvanian to ANY office that is a direct election - the Presidential preference primary is non-binding and you didn't just vote for President and Vice-President; you voted for Presidential Electors who will meet two weeks from today about 50 yards from here.}
1a) In Pennsylvania, our Constitution puts IMMENSE discretionary authority over elections onto COUNTIES, not the state. In fact, it is so much that way that HAVA forced some very adept gymnastics to add onto the state's authority over elections for federal office. It was very difficult to implement. Reason?: Elections (along with courts, and formerly schools) were the main reason PA even HAS counties.
2) Voter photo ID is a political ploy, on BOTH sides. At its true core, Republicans want fewer people to vote and Democrats want more. When Republicans control a state, they pass laws to restrict voting by making having proper ID more onerous, and when Democrats do, they try to make it more wide open to everybody. Politics - pure and simple.
3) As a Pennsylvanian now, you need to be aware that any form of electoral cheating that CAN be done, HAS BEEN done here. We are the "gold standard" of election AND VOTER fraud. If it's been done anywhere, it's been done here, BY BOTH POLITICAL PARTIES in our long history. Some of the most ridiculous crap has been done in the Coal Regions by what were then Republicans, some decades ago.
4) You are right that voting technology affects voting. Every jurisdiction that changes its system inevitably experiences a temporary rise in "undervoting", due to voting technique errors by voters reluctant to ask for instructions. The rates of voting errors resembles the chi-squared distribution shown here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi-squared_distribution
See the graph at the upper right with k=4. That is an approximation of what tends to happen to voter technique error rates. They tend to peak post-inception rather than at the very beginning because high intensity instruction happens at first and a degree of complacency sneaks in during the next few cycles.
5) States EVEN have totally different voter eligibility rules. An Alabama ex-felon can NEVER vote again unless granted clemency by (usually) a Governor ill-inclined to do it. If that same ex-felon moves to PA, he may vote unmolested from Day Thirty-One in the Keystone State.
6) You must try to stop thinking of a "Presidential election" as one event, and start forcing yourself to think of it as what it legally is: 51 smaller events artificially cobbled together by the media so people can feel easier about how weird it all is. |
Colin McDermott
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Colmcd
Post Number: 9
Registered: 8-2009
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, January 4, 2013 - 9:08 pm: |
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Writing in from an international perspective.
>> Maybe, I'm wrong. But I feel if there were more uniformity, there might be more confidence in the system.
The biggest problem with the US system is the variance of standards in the election system. Both parties have just taken the "electoral system" as their plaything, making it merely a numbers game. Electoral boundaries get drawn up to give a particular result at the De-enfranchisement of the voters. In Australia where I live the Electoral Commission is viewed as being strictly non political. Making it harder to question, but it's decisions so far have been fairly a-political.
>> 2) Voter photo ID is a political ploy, on BOTH sides. At its true core, Republicans want fewer people to vote and Democrats want more. When Republicans control a state, they pass laws to restrict voting by making having proper ID more onerous, and when Democrats do, they try to make it more wide open to everybody. Politics - pure and simple.
I found it interesting that the Australian Embassy was highlighting the role the compulsory voting vs voluntary voting plays in the electoral system. What voluntary voting has meant that the Republicans can count on a CORE constituency. The Democrats, if they can bring in extra people can count on their appeal to minorities. So we get an appeal to the margins or the extremes, not the middle ground.
If everyone votes, then there is no appeal to the Conservative core. There is no appeal to various racial groups (and no appearance thereof). You have an appeal to get the Majority of people, not the extremes. I believe that the need to win the extremes has polarized the American politic, more so then it needs to be. Mandatory voting would mean that you must appeal to the "middle ground" to win the election. If this was the case we would have seen a very different Romney! |
Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Realkurtb
Post Number: 257
Registered: 6-2011
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, January 7, 2013 - 7:23 am: |
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Colin,
I think you are generally "on the mark" here, but you're missing one aspect of American politics that may apply to Australia, and then again, might not.
Party identification, and particularly the changes therein, are "sticky" in the U.S. Rarely do voters switch from Republican to Democrat directly. The far more common path is to switch to a minor party first or to an Uncommitted or Independent status. In my 4 years having access to voter registration "change reports", this factor was a true eye-opener. It also buttresses your keen observation about core constituencies. The political culture of BOTH main U.S. political parties is sold not so much as a postive meassage about "our side", but how fundamentally evil "their side" is.
When you combine that kind of messaging with an essentially "one party" system (Democrat) in most American cities (yes, I am aware of some exceptions), you get relative voter complacency in off-year elections by inner city residents. The trash will be collected and the roads will be paved, by union member Democrats under the guidance of Democratic elected bosses, no matter what.
When you get into the rural areas, the Republicans hold sway, but by somewhat smaller margins, and therefore Republicans are more activated to vote in local elections typically.
Imagine a place where in the vast rural areas, one party wins by fairly stable 60-40 margins, and the other party wins locally in cities by much over 80-20 (93-7 in some) margins. The rural based party has more perceived need to vote in most elections, while the city party only gets activated by closer nationwide races, where if the rural facing party wins, all kinds of evil h*ll will be unleashed on city dwellers economically.
We call this place the United States of America.
{Speaking of well crafted messaging here, not NECESSARILY facts.} |
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