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| (CA) 6/10 - Alameda: Wrong candidate ... |
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| Author |
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From the Mailbag
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Mailbag
Post Number: 284
Registered: 10-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 9, 2010 - 10:39 am: | 
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CALIFORNIA - Republican listed on Democratic primary ballot?
My mom voted absentee this election 6-8-10 and swears that the Republican candidate for Governor was on the Democrat ballot. Have you run across anything like this?
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(Submitted to Black Box Voting by e-mail by Mark E., Alameda County.) |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 11092
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 9, 2010 - 10:41 am: |
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Hi Mark,
We see this occasionally. She might have been sent the wrong ballot, or she might be registered as a Republican though of course she apparently is not supposed to be registered that way, or did not think she was registered that way. Or, the ballot may contain an inadvertent or purposeful misprint.
Did the ballot also contain the Democratic candidates?
This is an important enough issue that, in the future, it would be a good idea to scan or photograph the offending ballot in order to pursue the matter further. Before it has votes on it, of course!
Thanks for writing.
Bev Harris
Founder - Black Box Voting
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Phillip Caine
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Phillip_caine
Post Number: 73
Registered: 3-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 10:48 am: |
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My sample ballot in Sacramento, California was a
P 042
It would be interesting to be able to track that number. ;o)
Every party was lumped in along with Spanish. It was a complete mess. The worst ballot I have ever seen in my life. From the double speak to the chaos and confusion a miserable failure indeed. I give it a grade of F-. It literally gave me nausea and a headache to read. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 3583
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 11:38 am: |
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Phillip,
The inclusion of Spanish is mandated by the Voting Rights Act of 1965 as amended - likely Section 203, which contains most, but not all, jurisdictions subject to it, but perhaps they fall under Section 2, as my county did. That list will be updated for 2012. Most of the rest of the gibberish language likely came right out of the California Election Code.
I know you disagree on this point, but election officials are NOT permitted to "interpret" the code to give you a more readable or more intuitive ballot, in pursuit of some higher constitutional purpose. They do NOT follow any "hierarchy" of laws in the broad sense. Their PRIMARY duty is to follow the most detail laden laws, EVEN IF THEY PERSONALLY BELIEVE FERVENTLY THAT DOING SO VIOLATES A CONSTITUTION! They are not permitted to think in that way - they are "ministerial". Courts must do the higher level analysis, and draft orders.
P 042 almost certainly identifies the 42nd unique ballot combination used in your county. Voters elsewhere in your county encountered AT LEAST 41 different ballots, probably far more.
==========================================
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
"Public sentiment is everything. With it, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed". --Abraham Lincoln
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Phillip Caine
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Phillip_caine
Post Number: 75
Registered: 3-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2010 - 7:53 am: |
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Well Kurt, I was commenting on the specific "Sample Ballot P 042." I have older ballots which were half the size, and easy to read. It's progressively gotten worse is my point. What used to fit in my hand now takes up the inside of my jacket, with much much info I don't even need. The ballot looked like an open primary to me. Yet, it wasn't, so with all that extra cruft, it only adds confusion. That's my point.
I am not sure where I said violating the constitution here in this thread. (In another thread you straightened me out about the right to vote isn't actually in the constitution.)
But if things are EXACTLY the way you just explained it to me in regards to the Constitution, it seems the courts have become domestic enemies, leaving no feedback loop for dissent, and furthermore leaving a bunch of cryptic red tape in it's wake.
Somewhere along the trail, common sense has not only left the path, but littered it with misguided officials and legal land mines waiting to break the chain of custody, legally bypass and ambush anyone unfunded daring to challenge it's failure.
It's Tyranny.
If you really want to get down to the brass tacks, I think the whole idea of D, R, I, L, G, P party is a dis-service to voters. To really find out who is and isn't in the public interest, we need to know who is affiliated with AIPAC, CFR, Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg, IMF, UNEP, etc
Who ought all be listed as foreign agents!!!
You'll can talk me down, and ignore what I say for so long, the math and markets are going to call the bluff real soon. When that happens our dialog here won't matter anymore. There's a whole lot of corruption going on, and the citizens of the United States are paying for it in sovereignty, monetary system, pain and death.
Now that the public is starting to become aware, anonymous speech will be eliminated. A combination of internet kill switch, spying, trusted computing, and command and control and tax to pay for it all, is going to do us in.
What will you say about our leaders who broke their oath then I wonder?
It's no longer fun when I can be arrested and disappeared forever for annoying a senator, (via a "vulgar slang bla bla you Constitution hating oath breaker styled communication") yet corporations now have person hood and can potentially kill 40 million people without consequences!
The real domestic threat isn't the registered voters, it's corporations who have become a dangerous cult.
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V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 3584
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, June 28, 2010 - 6:43 am: |
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Phillip,
If you knew me well, you'd know that my disagreements with the above are far more stylistic than substantive. I cannot afford to be so "loose" or "incendiary" in my rhetoric (and maybe my BP meds prevent it - ;o). I too am disturbed by broad trends I see. But SOMEONE has to be in the role of trying to change things from within, while allowing OTHERS to take the "brute force" approach. I admire your "fire" and agree your approach is necessary in the big picture, but it cannot be MY approach. I'm too old and too infirm to be able to burn that much raw energy that way.
I'd like to address one paragraph you wrote":
But if things are EXACTLY the way you just explained it to me in regards to the Constitution, it seems the courts have become domestic enemies, leaving no feedback loop for dissent, and furthermore leaving a bunch of cryptic red tape in it's wake.
I'll quibble ONLY with the incendiary characterization as domestic enemies, not the rest of the paragraph. The feedback loop for dissent is, as Al Gore noticed, virtually nil, short of taking up arms. Cryptic red tape is indeed the norm, quite true.
As for your problems with those organizations (AIPAC, CFR, Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg, IMF, UNEP, etc.), how would we EVER address those without abridging or criminalizing free speech? After all, it is mostly offensive speech that is at the core of the 1st Amendment.
As many dozens of Members of Congress will tell you, as of now, being part of those organizations enhances, rather than diminishes one's electoral prospects.
==========================================
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
"Public sentiment is everything. With it, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed". --Abraham Lincoln
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Phillip Caine
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Phillip_caine
Post Number: 86
Registered: 3-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, July 5, 2010 - 12:25 am: |
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"I'll quibble ONLY with the incendiary characterization as domestic enemies"
I DID NOT SAY take up ARMS KURT. I said they are domestic enemies. How you deal with broken oaths seems to depend on how high up you are. Take for example an airman breaking his oath will do hard labor in Leavenworth, while a General simply retires. A Senator get's NO punishment.
"As for your problems with those organizations (AIPAC, CFR, Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg, IMF, UNEP, etc.), how would we EVER address those without abridging or criminalizing free speech? "
They are foreign agents Kurt. They should be registered as such. Choosing to bury your head and not even acknowledge the problem is what keeps them in power. The Logan Act with TEETH is what these foreign agents and our creepy oath breaking officials need to be force fed.
Furthermore, they are infiltrating LOCAL government! You know.. all those lesser offices.
"As many dozens of Members of Congress will tell you, as of now, being part of those organizations enhances, rather than diminishes one's electoral prospects."
So you acknowledge this criminal activity. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 2509
Registered: 1-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 6, 2010 - 5:29 am: |
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It isn't mostly offensive free speech that is at the core of the First Amendment, that's just where people notice it the most. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 3586
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 6, 2010 - 5:55 am: |
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So Phillip, is being a participant in any body with an international membership, or one that discusses international issues, automatically being a foreign agent? If so, I may have to rethink visiting the U.N. with my boy, and I may have to rethink my foreign coin collection. Imagine the roundup you could do at a high school model United Nations conference.
Point is - participating internationally is NOT a crime, it's statesmanship. Being a foreign agent requires acting on behalf of a particular country, unlike anything that happens at a CFR, IMF, or UNEP dinner. International organizations do not a foreign agent make, even a slimy international organization.
AIPAC is a PAC. (Duh!) A large formally recognized and registered PAC. Or are we going to morph into an antisemitic rant next? They're (AIPAC) sure not MY particular cup o' tea ideologically, but then so little is.  The number of PACs that could EVER get a dime from me is minuscule indeed. Too myopic for me. Problem is, though, I get REAL queasy about abridging free speech. I see it as pretty core.
BTW, I agree fully with you that oaths are treated as something less than literally binding far too often. In my state, our courts have held that nothing short of an actual criminal conviction in a court of law constitutes an oath breach.
==========================================
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
"Public sentiment is everything. With it, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed". --Abraham Lincoln
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Phillip Caine
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Phillip_caine
Post Number: 87
Registered: 3-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, July 11, 2010 - 12:52 am: |
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No Kurt, Go read the god damned LOGAN ACT
http://law.jrank.org/pages/8357/Logan-Act.html
"AIPAC, CFR, Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg, IMF, UNEP, etc
Who ought all be listed as foreign agents!!!"
This is what I said.
Now, quit making up all this race baiting seed story trash, about antisemitism rants, and other completely fabricated cruft, like donating to PAC's, and your freaking coin collection. I've been very clear what kind of foreign activity I am talking about.. And what I am talking about isn't unreasonable.
Go read the Logan Act.
Now consider a voter's ballot, says D, R, I, L, G, P for the candidate. This tells the voter nothing about foreign influences. All this side show garbage you spewed out simply distracts people from this problem.
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V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 3589
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 6:36 am: |
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Okay, then PRECISELY how does ANYTHING that happens at "AIPAC, CFR, Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg, IMF, UNEP" fall under":
"Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
This section shall not abridge the right of a citizen to apply, himself or his agent, to any foreign government or the agents thereof for redress of any injury which he may have sustained from such government or any of its agents or subjects."
Frankly, I'm not seeing it. Sorry. At NONE of CFR, Trilateral Commission, or Bilderberg are people acting FOR their governments, in any official capacity. Other than AIPAC, they're all glorified debating societies! IMF has a valid economic function.
==========================================
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
"Public sentiment is everything. With it, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed". --Abraham Lincoln
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Phillip Caine
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Phillip_caine
Post Number: 88
Registered: 3-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 8:06 pm: |
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Kurt, you seem to want to keep bringing up AIPAC, while glossing over everything else.
Okay, fine how about we start with Lieberman. Are you going to sit there and tell me Lieberman isn't influenced by AIPAC? And that influence doesn't effect taxpayers, voters, and international policy?
"Joe Lieberman brazenly calls for a US "strike against and inside Iran" on Face the Nation Sunday." -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nmwmGcVAws
Or maybe you like the 2006 Article.
AIPAC's Dangerous Grip on Washington
2009
http://blogs.salon.com/0002255/2009/12/16.html
Here's one in 2008
http://worldpressnetwork.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=462
I'm barely scratching the surface. Your not seeing anything Kurt, because your not LOOKING.
For example: http://www.google.com/search?q=Lieberman+AIPAC
If you would bother to look, you will start to see. It's not just AIPAC and Lieberman.
And this whole thing is FAR FAR from glorified debating societies sipping tea and coffee.
I say again your political party has become totally irrelevant in the bigger picture. Just because corporate owned media doesn't report it doesn't make it not true.
AIPAC has also been busted for SPYING on the United States. http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/motherofallscandals.html
Now Kurt, I think I've reasonably answered your questions, you want extra homework follow up on this search, modify it and see if you can peg the same pattern with the others. If you can't put two and two together now that I've pointed you in the right direction, I don't know what more we have to say here, you can keep asking your questions but the answers are right in front of your face.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Pelosi+AIPAC
So yeah I want to see it say AIPAC next to the Candidates Name On THe BALLOT. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 3591
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 6:10 am: |
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Okay then, let is be known to all that Phillip Caine wants to start indicting and trying people under the Logan Act, passed in 1799, and yet not ONE SINGLE SOLITARY PERSON HAS EVER BEEN TRIED UNDER IT.....EVER! (one indictment, later dismissed)
Now why might that be? Could it be because virtually ALL constitutional scholars who have studied it, REGARDLESS OF POLITICAL IDEOLOGY, have determined that it is very likely unconstitutionally vague? Could THAT be it? Maybe. Laws are required to be specific enough so that a normal person can reasonably ascertaiin what is prohibited. The Logan Act fails the test.
See the below:
To satisfy due process, “a penal statute [must] define the criminal offense [1] with sufficient definiteness that ordinary people can understand what conduct is prohibited and [2] in a manner that does not encourage arbitrary and discriminatory enforcement.” Kolender v. Lawson, 461 U. S. 352, 357. The void-for-vagueness doctrine embraces these requirements.
The paragraph above comes from the syllabus of a Supreme Court case decided mere weeks ago.
BTW, on this:
"I say again your political party has become totally irrelevant in the bigger picture."
I fully agree. In my state, party is merely a label, and has no meaning for public policy at all, AS A MATTER OF STATE LAW. Our code does not allow for any loyalty oaths or statements of any kind to be a party member, merely checking a box on a form. Party means exactly zero in my state, in terms of ideology or policy, as my employers exhibit in an ongoing manner.
==========================================
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
"Public sentiment is everything. With it, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed". --Abraham Lincoln
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Phillip Caine
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Phillip_caine
Post Number: 89
Registered: 3-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2010 - 1:30 am: |
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Kurt don't put words into my mouth, you really are a nasty spin master. Your a GOD DAMNED LIAR, anyone can hit F3 type in and SEARCH the word "indict" on this page and the only person talking about INDICT IS YOU KURT. (except NOW I have said it twice because of your crazymaker crap. You don't dare talk like this to my face Kurt, or your going to end up in the dentist emergency room, you god damn punk. You don't agree with me, so stop saying it, you God damn liar. You just sit there and quote bad laws. I have a big wake up for you Kurt, not all laws created are good laws, or just. I'll bet you don't even know what Jury Nullification is. Your really god at quoting what ACTUALLY is going on, but your a miserable failure when it comes to what is RIGHT, and what is WRONG.
I'm done debating this with you, the only thing I get from your words Kurt is that you want things to stay broken. And every time I present a solution you on a silver platter you have to urinate on it, and claim it's outrageous, and then suggest I am unstable or some other made up crap, Like racism/anti-semite while simultaneously spewing out a bunch of hypothetical nonsense questions, which only go to piss me off and waste my god damn time.
Your an real jackass Kurt.
Enjoy the demented world your apathy allows.
You've accused me of many things in this thread Kurt, from anti-Semite to wanting to arrest people. And furthermore your a FOOL for not bothering to look at my website to notice I am airing Kosha Dillz so how does that make me hate Jews, You god damn idiot.
At the same time your so STUPID you can't even put two and two together to comprehend, I bring up the LOGAN act as the method to IDENTIFY foreign agents (in reality the Logan act isn't enforced! - yeah I already knew this.) But the ORIGINAL THREAD was talking about BALLOTS with the wrong Candidate names on it. I take it a step further and suggest (without saying it) the ballot has further flaws in that the D, R, I, L, G, P are OUTDATED, and ought to be replaced with WHO they are AFFILIATED with. If you really think PARTY matters, then Hell keep both Kurt I don't give a crap. I never said GO AFTER people. I said IDENTIFY FOREIGN AGENTS KURT (the same way the LOGAN Act IDENTIFIED THEM. in essence USE what someone else already wrote.) But your all in some kind of ZOMBIE REACTIVE mode, where you have to actually have a major crisis destroy something, and then be presented with evidence, before you realize you screwed up and need to make a change. The reality is you are cast from the same gene pool of all this crappy leadership going around for the past 12 years, destroying 200 years of a constitutional republic and it's monetary system. The reality is as an ex-election judge you put on some kind of fake authority, which is all high and mighty and you treat little people like me like CRAP... I know your type, I've seen you out in the field. The Election Judge with her Ass leaning back on a chair behind a Diebold Scanner near the power cable with her jacket and crap all near the back of the machine near the air holes and crap.. YOUR A MORON. U SUCK Your the SAME kind of OFFICIAL who walks around just waiting for the public to start digging and asking questions too close for comfort so you end up using your authority to, stop it going further, dictate and change the conversation, and when that doesn't work your a master of choreographing it into some kind of domestic terror threat incident needing cops to remove the person asking important questions or pointing out exploits. YES YOU KURT
You don't look forward and take responsibility for the SCREWED UP system you are /were in charge of. All you can say is to argue for why it's cheaper, better, the law and how we all need more of these infernal machines consisting of electronic vote tabulation devices in which NOBODY can see the GOD DAMN SIGNALS.
Friggin IDIOT! You've probably pissed me off enough to get me banned, So be it.
There's quite a few words I'd love to describe you with, but I TRIED, I really did TRY to tone it down. Your so far out in the coo-coo's nest, it's better you just get the hell out of my face before something bad happens.
You really are a piece of work Kurt. I don't like you at all. Go the hell away and stay the crap out of my threads you M.....F..... |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 3592
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2010 - 10:56 am: |
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Correction, sir. I was for four years an "election judge" like your neighbor, but then later I was for four yeras a "county election director", like Ion Soncho, except it's not an elected position in my state. Get your facts straight, sir.
What I am NOT is some wild-eyed ranter freak, and all too happy not to be. It seems there is a sufficient supply of them to meet any demand. Okay, maybe there's always a need on Bradblog, but then you already know that, don't you?
Oh, by the way, for the record, the site on the Logan Act that you yourself linked here, starts off describing the Logan Act as a criminal statute, thusly:
"The Logan Act (18 U.S.C.A. § 953 [1948]) is a single federal statute making it a crime for a citizen to confer with foreign governments ..."
Get a clue, pal.
Happy to have helped you define your "inner you", Phillip. Go get some counseling.
==========================================
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
"Public sentiment is everything. With it, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed". --Abraham Lincoln
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Phillip Caine
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Phillip_caine
Post Number: 90
Registered: 3-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2010 - 12:58 pm: |
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Okay "election judge" , "county election director" .. Whatever your title is, . Maybe I made a mistake on the god damn title of your name, but I didn't make a mistake on the KIND of person you are. The title of your name is a far cry from the dirty crap of lies and misrepresentation you pull.
You haven't listened to a word I've said, instead you specifically craft your questions in a way which dictates the direction of the conversation.
Then, that's not enough, You slander my name with lies Kurt.
In this thread alone, I've been accused of what all...
Racist.
Wild-Eyed Ranter Freak.
Needs psychiatric counseling
You misrepresent me...
Logan Act - rounding people up.
Bradblog - ranters
This is the pattern of a LIAR, who is caught, and can only attack people's character, and change the topic..
Oh and by the way Kurt, the Logan Act that I linked, should be REUSED to IDENTIFY FOREIGN AGENTS so that when a candidate, or proposition, or measure is put on a ballot so voters can TELL WHO IS BEHIND IT! IN CASE YOUR STILL DON'T GET IT, I THINK ALL CORPORATE INTERESTS WHO DONATE OVER A CERTAIN AMOUNT (No I don't know this amount) OUGHT TO BE SHOWN IN THE BALLOT AS WELL. They put a D, R, I, L, G, P in front of peoples names already, I am simply suggesting (ON THE BALLOT) these interests are documented and the voter knows WHO THE HELL THEY ARE.
EXAMPLE: You want to vote for Nuking Iran?, vote for AIPAC candidates!
EXAMPLE2: You want Global Carbon Tax?, vote UN,UNEP,IMF
YOU NOW HAVE CLEAR WORDS OUT OF MY MOUTH. GO AHEAD PUNK, DEVIATE FROM IT AGAIN!!!
So you want to say I want to round people up again or some completely fabricated crap about me. What now Kurt huh? I cuss too much? (Everyone already knew that) What next will you fabricate?
You are an exposed Liar, who doesn't like truth.
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Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 5658
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2010 - 2:58 pm: |
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please cut out the offensive language and personal attacks
talking that way doesn't enhance anyone's credibility |
Phillip Caine
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Phillip_caine
Post Number: 91
Registered: 3-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2010 - 7:19 pm: |
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No Catherine,
Kurt is the one who started with PERSONAL ATTACKS,. But I will END it.
I will leave.
Keep your golden liar Kurt. He's done nothing but talk pro-machine since I first crossed paths, he wastes my time by re-directing the the intent of a conversation to something he dreams up, and now he slanders my name. Saying outrageous lies like I want the rounding up people at high schools or being anti-semitic.
Kurt is a manipulative Golden Liar. Perfect for the NWO enjoy him, I'm out of this place.
I don't need your credibility Catherine. |
Kyle Lacio
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Kylelacio
Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2010
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2010 - 9:29 pm: |
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Back to the original post... Here in South Carolina we use the ES&S iVotronic touch screen voting machines. In the primary you must choose to vote either republican or democrat. Voters on the republican ballot said they were able to vote for Alvin Greene (a democrat candidate) ... also we had complaints from democrat voters that said that the senate race was not on their ballot. There is no way to prove either claim because the ES&S iVotronic only gives a total end of the day count and has no record of the ballots or the individual votes cast. |
Mike LaBonte
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Mike_labonte
Post Number: 524
Registered: 12-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, July 15, 2010 - 5:12 am: |
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About SC voters choosing a Republican or Democrat ballot and being able to vote for the wrong party, I wonder if the percentages are low enough that it could be explained by the screen calibration problem - press a button on the screen and the machine thinks you pressed another.
For ballot selection maybe it takes you straight to the Republican or Democrat ballot you chose once you hit Next, without asking for confirmation. It is then up to the voter to realize what happened and go back to the ballot selection screen. Some people may just say "Hey, I picked Republican and I was able to vote for Alvin Greene" without noticing that all of the names were Democrats. In my experience, some percentage of the voters walk in not knowing what offices they will be voting on, much less who is running. Just theorizing, since I haven't seen those machines.
When anyone says a race was not on their ballot, the first thing that comes to mind is the FL-13 debacle:
http://www.bradblog.com/Docs/FL13_SarasotaBallotScreenshots_110706.pdf |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 3593
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, July 15, 2010 - 5:59 am: |
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All,
"EXAMPLE: You want to vote for Nuking Iran?, vote for AIPAC candidates!
EXAMPLE2: You want Global Carbon Tax?, vote UN,UNEP,IMF "
Hmm. I actually see policy merit in those, but there ARE problems with the idea - mostly lack of political support for such a change, and the fact that they run afoul of many states' court's interpretation of their constitutions.
There are alternatives - like doing your own research on the candidates. I understand Phillip might be from California, where the electoral authorities do have at least a minimal obligation to provide SOME information to voters about candidates. Most states do not have ANY such requirements. One is mine. Our elections folks are ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN from providing any such information, even a "neutral" bio sketch, so the LWV fills that role with a newspaper supplement. For those on the west coast, I'll emphasize. NO CANDIDATE LIST OR SAMPLE BALLOT MAILING IS EVER DONE HERE BY THE ELECTION AUTHORITIES!
I'd like to leave Phillip with one idea - not every meritorious policy has even half a prayer of actually being enacted. In fact, it might even be a pure majority of such meritorious ideas that suffer that fate. Having a "better idea" is seldom enough to prevail, by itself. You have to "win" hearts and minds, too. See my Lincoln quote below.
As for Joseph Lieberman, I think you'd have to go VERY far to find a Connecticut voter who is unaware of the extent to which he favors Israeli foreign policies. I think he doesn't hide that fact. I think if you'd poll CT's frequent voters, you'd find they like his views.
==========================================
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
"Public sentiment is everything. With it, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed". --Abraham Lincoln
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V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 3594
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, July 15, 2010 - 6:16 am: |
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Kyle, Mike,
This is not unprovable. A machine can be tested to see if the problem is repeatable. Most likely reasons:
1) The people who "were Republicans" thought that they were by so choosing it at that moment and could not under law, so were given the Democrat ballot instead. This is common in my state. Was the primary "declarable"? If not, this is the problem.
2) The poll workers screwed up and gave him a wrong activator card. In a state SC's size, that probably happened THOUSANDS of times that day, most of which were caught and correctd and not put in the news.
As Mike indicated above, voters make mistakes. I have HAD the experience of being hauled into court by subpoena because a plaintiff INSISTED on an Election Day that I had failed to list a candidate. The evidence was indisputable. The candidate was there all along. His answer? "Ohhh, there. I wasn't looking there."
Yup.
When people EXPECT to find something amiss, they USUALLY can, even if it requires imagination.
Bottom line: to me, the WORST POSSIBLE EVIDENCE is Election Day reports by voters. Passions tend to run high, and reason tends to run low. We saw this in stark example at the 2008 Presidential primary between Obama and Clinton in PA. So much misinformation made it BOTH into the MSM and the blogosphere! It was ASTONISHING! Also, poll workers too frequently engage in their own shorthand language (jargon, lingo) that THEY understand and rank and file voters do not. "How To Speak With Voters" should be a required training module for all poll workers.
==========================================
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
"Public sentiment is everything. With it, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed". --Abraham Lincoln
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V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 3595
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, July 15, 2010 - 6:55 am: |
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After doing a little additional research, I found that SC did have a now probably unconstitutional open partisan primary (see the recent SCOTUS California case) in June, so idea 1) above is out. Walk in and declare is the method. That leaves only 2).
There are other rules, which I have copied below. Note that IF A RACE IS UNOPPOSED, it will NOT appear on the primary ballot and write-ins are prohibited in primaries. So why WOULD THEY list an unopposed office?
That means the "where" of a given race on the iVotronic could and SHOULD vary WIDELY between the two parties, so "look on the first screen" type of instructions would often fail.
By the way, a literacy test to vote is still in the SC Constitution's text to this day, even though the SCOTUS has declared them all unconstitutional.
ARTICLE II. SECTION 6. General Assembly may require demonstration of literacy.
The General Assembly may require each person to demonstrate a reasonable ability, except for physical disability, to read and write the English language as a condition to becoming entitled to vote. (1970 (56) 2691; 1971 (57) 319.)
Congratulations on your guts at least, SC. Seems a little repeal work may be in order, hmm? Heck, a sharp lawyer could pretty much make a career out of fighting SC election unconstitutionalities.
SC primary rules:
"If no candidate receives at least 50% of the vote in the primary, a runoff will be held between the top two vote-getters.
Voters who voted in a party's primary, can vote only in the runoff of the same party. Voters who did not vote in the primary, may vote in either party's runoff.
The primary is for Democratic and Republican candidates only. Candidates running unopposed for their Party's nomination will not appear on primary ballots.
Voters may not vote in a political party’s runoff if they voted in another political party’s primary. However, voters who did not vote in either politicial party’s primary may vote in either politicial party’s runoff.
A defeated primary candidate may not actively offer or campaign as a write-in candidate for the ensuing election. The use of posters or stickers on the ballot is not permitted. The voting machine provides for a voter to write-in a candidate. Write-in votes are not allowed in primary elections or the election of President or Vice-president.
While the state permits fusion (a candidate may be nominated by multiple parties), if a candidate runs for and looses a primary (of any party), the candidate cannot appear on the November ballot."
==========================================
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
"Public sentiment is everything. With it, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed". --Abraham Lincoln
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Phillip Caine
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Phillip_caine
Post Number: 92
Registered: 3-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 8:04 am: |
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Here's some breaking news for Kurt, the golden BBV plant/liar from hell.. Something to think about either way you want to slice it. When the people had enough, non of your lies will matter anymore. And not even GOD can protect you from their (not my) wrath.
http://www.politicalwrinkles.com/news-current-events/14179-republican-election-commissioner-found-murdered-monroe-county-tn.html
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/19/body-tennessee-election-official-trunk-burning-car/?test=latestnewshttp://www.politicalwrinkles.com/news-current-events/14179-republican-election-commissioner-found-murdered-monroe-county-tn.html |
Phillip Caine
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Phillip_caine
Post Number: 93
Registered: 3-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 8:23 am: |
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After doing a little additional research, I found that SC did have a now probably unconstitutional open partisan primary
So what punishment happened? Let me guess, NONE.
So what corrections to the count happened? Let me guess again, NONE.
And why should I listen to you again Kurt? NONE that's right! |
Phillip Caine
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Phillip_caine
Post Number: 94
Registered: 3-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 8:27 am: |
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ARTICLE II. SECTION 6. General Assembly may require demonstration of literacy.
Outdated law needs challenge by jury nullification
+dog eats world message squishes Kurt, the Golden liar Brainwashing the masses into Zeraw Change (in your pockets and in your soul, and in your/my country with it's egregious unconstitutional laws masked by the lies of 911 and shroud in HFT arms race destroying our kittens love bank, and un-barking the dawgs . ur only right when you think for yourself . i been thinking for myself, and come to the conclusion after watching the crypto devel vs the war on terror and the writing is on the wall. These are the last anonymous days. Because of punks, and thugs, and sellouts, and murders. if you no longer have anonymous, you no longer have the United States of America.
There's no feedback loop!
Walled off news. Ratchel Maddow, NYTimes, Murdoc, on an on.. dang
password hell, with no protected management device.
Basically what we have is electronic and software mayhem. Understood by EVERY blog
Question really is, is, is even money safe electronically?
111 = 000
your toasted.
2Volts bay-bee (Or whatever the specs your using is)
Are you popular? Meet, The Captcha Crapture Book of Revelations.
Can you tell I had a few beers? Sorry. I ain't going to let Kurtly smear me. I will burn my account to the ground first.
a little bird told me to apologize to Kurt for saying I want to basically bash his mouth in.
Okay, I'll man up and apologize. I'm sorry, I tried to edit that out. It wouldn't let me. I still can't remove it. It's not my fault. I've also told Bev to remove it and to yank my account! And yet, even still i can not remove it. GOD can't remove it, maybe I should hack the DNS?
No bad idea?
I also want to document the fact the sequence of events I countered with anger only after being accused of stuff I didn't do
With that said, YOU KURT, have slandered my name and made up fantasy lies about me.
Perhaps your looking for some trouble? Perhaps it's exactly like I been saying all along.
I want to think kurt is a good dude, but every time i cross paths he is going ape shtzoid on me. YOU CAN SEE THE THREAD CAN YOU NOT?
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Phillip Caine
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Phillip_caine
Post Number: 95
Registered: 3-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 9:12 am: |
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Editing Privilege Denied
Sorry, but the message you were attempting to edit was posted more than 500 minutes ago. You are not permitted to edit messages more than 500 minutes old. If the message needs to be edited, contact a moderator, who can edit the message for you through the administration program.
Please contact admin if this problem persists.
Discus Pro 4.00.7
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Perl 5.008/linux |
Phillip Caine
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Phillip_caine
Post Number: 96
Registered: 3-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 9:16 am: |
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All I want to do is take back what was published about kurt visiting a dentist. Which I accidentally said. That's it. I am sorry I don't threaten him in any way what so ever. I don't want not one hair harmed on him. It nevertheless doesn't decrease the problems I point out beyond just kurt and myself.
Yeah he makes me mad as hell no I don't want him hurt.
(Look at this editor we are using. I made a friggin mistake, I way put myself out there already saying I am sorry. I sure the hell don't admit ANY crime. And All that crap Kurt says about my mental stability is an INSULT to intelligence!)
I am going to let it roll again.. Do the right thing... I was bad need some punish, but SO WAS KURT!!!
if you want to get down to the brass tacks, I think I am right and I think he's wrong only in that he gives you no hope. Whereas, I suggest outlawing electronics in elections, which is really not that radical. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 3598
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 9:33 am: |
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the murder victim in the above-referenced case an extremist right-wing birther sorta dude? That's what I'm reading. How that becomes some indictment for my politics, a conservative Democrat working for a conservative Democrat committee chair in a state legislature, is way beyond me.
Maybe Phillip doesn't need counseling after all. Maybe all he needs is to lay off the substances (few beers). Phillip, if no malice was intended, none is presumed. Okay? We'll ALWAYS likely diasagree substantively, but perhaps we can do it more agreeably. I do not handle extreme dogma well.
You state that I have always been "pro-machine". I think that is an overstatement. It IS completely accurate to say that I am not AS TROUBLED by them as you and perhaps 99%+ of posters here. Stipulated. That doesn't mean I don't think they need to be eliminated. My objections are "process" problems.
Just for the record, folks, I think birthers are nuts, too. Both political edges are LOADED with nuts, IMO. And the main thing they have in common is an apparent burning desire to repeatedly illustrate that fact. Both extremes apparently use "cyberspace" to facilitate contact with like-minded souls so that they don't have to deal with a real world that would illustrate how few and far between they truly are in "meatspace". Most people are too polite to call a nut a nut to their face. I never had that gene. I, too, tend to be an "in your face" kinda guy, challenging nearly anyone's fanciful dogma, all while enjoying making them think and squirm.
Oh, and when I say challenge dogma, my requirement goes way beyond "link, please". It means explain your thought process or personal first-hand knowledge. I don't find 1,000 Internet links as compelling as one firsthand experience. Writers and websites tend to have too many hidden agendas. That's why I respect the h3ll out of Bev Harris. We may not be cut from the same ideological cloth, and we sure don't even agree on every factual detail, but she's more a thinker than a linker. That's worth its weight in gold.
Yes, when I suspect someone's view on electoral reform comes from their POLITICS (in the "who wins" sense), I WILL get "all up in their grill". It erodes their credibility, yes with me, but more importantly with policy makers generally. So expect me to do that. I WILL challenge what I believe is ideologically-driven dogma. Don't like that? Tough! I love exposing "reform" as just poorly concealed plain old politics as usual. It's "my thing." In the past, I've challenged Bev similarly, and she proved to be "the genuine article", a pure reformer with a non-partisan agenda, at least in her core issues addressed here.
==========================================
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
"Public sentiment is everything. With it, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed". --Abraham Lincoln
|
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 3599
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 10:57 am: |
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Point by point response to Phillip's SC post above:
After doing a little additional research, I found that SC did have a now probably unconstitutional open partisan primary
So what punishment happened? Let me guess, NONE.
Yes, none. That's not how constitutional law works. There is no "punishment". There is only correction. The state must either change SC's primary laws or the feds must sue to force them to. See what happened to Alabama over their statewide voter registry. No one is "punished" per se. Does that offend you? Just for your information, there already is a case challenging the SC primary method. Plaintiff? The Republican Party of South Carolina. That all said, is it possible that Alvin Greene's victory was due to a combination of black Democrats voting racially and "dirty trick" Republicans jumping over to vote for him in the Democratic primary because DeMint was a shoo-in in the Republican one? And now they want to close that door so some day Democrats can't retaliate in kind? I'd say it's more than possible, it's darned likely.
So what corrections to the count happened? Let me guess again, NONE.
Yes, again correct, none. There is no remedy that can be done to correct a count from an unconstitutionally crafted primary. It is what it is. Or, for Latin fans, "Est quod est."
And why should I listen to you again Kurt? NONE that's right!
Whatever, suit yourself. You don't get to remake law to suit yourself, so cope as you might.
==========================================
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
"Public sentiment is everything. With it, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed". --Abraham Lincoln
|
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 3601
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 5:42 am: |
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You see, Phillip, and lots of others whose thought processes are similar to Phillip's, there is VERY LITTLE in how laws actually work that is ever going to respond to a common man on the street's curbside interpretation of "how things should work".
The text of law has a tenuous connection to popular sovereignty, through writing letters to try to influence legislators. But the rules of legal procedure don't EVEN respond to legislators very much. The courts decide that all with next to no meaningful oversight by anyone. They even occasionally tell legislatures to metaphorically "go to h3ll".
If the lack of popular sovereignty over law and the courts makes you angry, you're always going to be angry. They were made quasi-imperial not by accident. They were DESIGNED to be immune from public pressure.
==========================================
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
"Public sentiment is everything. With it, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed". --Abraham Lincoln
|
Phillip Caine
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Phillip_caine
Post Number: 97
Registered: 3-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 5:31 pm: |
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the murder victim in the above-referenced case an extremist right-wing birther sorta dude?
Kurt, Your leading the conversation again, and attempting to close various feedback loops, while making up ideas and assumptions about everything I say.
Do we now need to add Birther, and Tea Party activist to your lies about me in this very thread?
We definitely need to add "drinking problem" to the list. Since you've now gone after that crumb.
Racist.
Wild-Eyed Ranter Freak.
Needs psychiatric counseling
Logan Act - rounding people up.
Bradblog - ranters
The only point I posted the murder, is as a shining example of no matter what law or reason or discussion already in place, or on going debate, it's gotten so completely out of control.
I don't really care if he was corrupt, or if it was retaliation or what. My point is such forces can not be stopped. If officials make a big enough mistake (sic) and anger a big enough amount of people, there's going to be nothing left. And nothing can stop it when it gets to that point, it becomes cause and effect all in itself, and the only thing to be done after is clean up the ash.
But you have to make it an indictment about yourself, at the same time making up more and more lies about me. elevating few beers into "substance" what next Kurt If I say the word "meth" will you work that in next?
The one thing I have that's different than you Kurt is HONESTY. I tell you when I feel I said something bad, and I apologize, I tell you when I am frustrated, I tell you when I had a couple beers. It's how I avoid resentments, and to keep from having to hide any kind of lies. The concept is called HONESTY.
The messages I posted here are opinion, and suggestions. The messages you've posted about me are outright lies mixed in with spun half truths and sometimes even a real bit of truth thrown in.
This is the problem. Not once have you even suggested your sorry about a damn thing you've lied about me. Not ONCE.
Instead you DO IT AGAIN!
Now I am a common man, on substance, affiliated with tea party, birther, bradblog, a racist for suggesting foreign agents like AIPAC (among others we'll ignore) be actually registered so we can see who's behind the people on the ballot. But I guess I am just a Wild-Eyed Ranter Freak, Needs psychiatric counseling, for suggesting we roll out the Logan Act - rounding people up. Oh yeah and I am a common "curbside" man trying to change laws with no understanding.
That about sum it up for you Kurt?
Maybe you can squeak the meth in there too in your authoritative reply? I can barely keep up with the slime you've thrown at me.
This country can forget about ever holding a ballot with simple information about who is affiliated with what foreign agent or corporation, as long as such lies come out of ex officials mouths in the face of truth and suggestions to counter the problems officials themselves have created for everyone.
In short, You don't want to hear a solution because it will break the power structure designed to enslave us. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 3602
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2010 - 6:30 am: |
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I think you might have a guilty conscience, Phillip. Go back upthread and read the ACTUAL LANGUAGE I used in the posts. I made inferences based on YOUR posts, on several cases I made a reference to what I am NOT, not what you ARE. You inferred an excessively adverse interpretation on nearly every opportunity.
Here are some points that I hope we can see common ground in:
1) I do indeed have an overwhelmingly negative view of Bradblog and the culture of the site that Brad maintains there. That said, I once had a lengthy phone conversation with Brad and I find him personally quite reasonable and personable. I can't say the same for his site. I feel "dirty" spending even a minute or two there. It is what my buddy calls "Injun Country", that is, somewhere one instantly feels uncomfortable and unwelcome, unlike here. Let me be clear - I find the site culture of Bradblog really scary and "dark" and something which disturbs me deeply, on several dozen levels. That site just gives me the worst set of the creeps I've ever had.
2) I think you and everyone else on the planet should try to refrain from "drinking and posting". It lowers the level of the discourse.
3) I do have an ultimate disdain for what we called in the 1960's and 1970's the "New Left". I find the whole 50 or 60-something "hippies that never grew up" that turned into used Volvo drivers my favorite objects of ridicule and disdain. I do so love to mess with them. To those that are their ideological progeny - the people who scrawl signs and stand on bridges holding signs protesting something or other, I usually "flip them the bird". I find them utterly ridiculous, as I do the ideological outliers at both ends of the modern American body politic. I feel no sympathy toward them or desire to associate with such people whatsoever.
4) I also disdain the "alternative inde rock" culture generally. I think they have no taste. Call it my own personal quirk. "Rockers" just plain old *iss me off, okay? My iPod has podcasts, Sinatra, the Irish Rovers (an Irish traditional musical ensemble) and a very tiny bit of early (1964-65) Beatles. Nothing acid, hard , alternative, or inde EVER is on it. We simply are of radically different cultures, Phillip. I am personally AGGRESSIVELY conservative and I always have been. I was "Alex P. Keaton" before Michael J. Fox ever read the script. I've never listened to a Woodstock anthology album and I have no desire to do so, nor do I find Jimmy Hendrix ANY kind of positive figure. Sorry, I just don't. If there were a volume called "The 20th Century American Cultural Encyclopaedia", if someone told me my picture was there under a label "the essential mid-to-late 20th century counter-countercultural type", I would be a) pleased and b) not surprised.
5) I am still not clear on your view on anti-semitism, but making AIPAC a prime target at least legitimately raises a valid question. Why does it? Because true anti-semites do exactly the same thing you did. Coincidence? Hopefully. You tell me. Tell me what your holistic view of Israel is. In fairness, because I asked you, here's mine. I largely support them, but they occasionally make me cringe. If they some day feel a need to attack Iran in perceived self-defense, I'll hate that day's coming, but I'll find it hard to blame them much. I can't imagine living as Israelis do every day.
6) You have used a reference to an act (Logan) that does a very specific thing - define a crime (very badly) and suggested that we use it to morph into a foreign agent registration requirement for people who are not now subject to such registration. I find that not only legally specious, but irresponsibly amateurish rhetoric. You can't morph a law into another purpose. No one ever could. They are what they are. I realize you are making a broad policy proposal, not a legal one. But that doesn't mean you get to be infinitely legally sloppy. Not if you wish to avoid the label "ranter". "Ranters" have no obligation for their proposals to make legal or logical sense. They are free to "think outside the box" with no constraints whatsoever. That is what ranters do and are.
7) NO ONE, NOT YOU OR ANYONE ELSE, PHILLIP, EVER EVER, EVER, GETS LICENSE FROM ME TO JUST BE A FREE FORM "STREAM OF CONSCIOUSNESS" THINKER AND WRITER. YOU HAVE TO MAKE YOUR IDEAS MAKE SENSE TO OTHER PEOPLE, CAPEESH??? THE DEVIL TRULY ALWAYS IS IN THE DETAILS, AND WHAT I DO FOR A LIVING IS IN THE NATURE OF DOTTING 'I'S AND CROSSING 'T'S OF OTHER PEOPLE'S POLICY PROPOSALS, PROPOSALS WITH WHICH I FREQUENTLY PERSONALLY DISAGREE, BUT I AM A PROFESSIONAL WITH OBLIGATIONS TO MY EMPLOYERS, SO I DO MY TASKS WELL. (Perhaps this explains my need to question and beat to death with details every idea - it's what I'm paid to do. That, and find and report on the "unintended consequences" of legislation.)
8) For anyone here a long time, they will know I get "all up in the grill" of ANYONE on here who EVER suggests that there is a) 'the solution' to electoral reform (there ain't no 'the solution' but many intertwined ones), b) there are any simple answers (if they were simple, they'd have been done already), and c) all we need is a federal law requiring "X" (elections are constitutionally a state issue primarily, for better or worse. Maybe we SHOULD federalize them, but CAN we? Not at all clear we can.)
9) Everyone on every discussion board has a self-defined role. Mine is to challenge the orthodoxy of what I believe are insufficiently thought out off the cuff policy proposals and to be the metaphorical "wet blanket" thrown on excessively myopic suggestions. Free form thinkers without sufficient rigorous introspection on the consequences on their proposals are ALWAYS going to have issues with the "Bellmans" of the world. I'm fine with that. You need to be too.
10) Your "he attacked me" meme is getting old and tired. Drop it. Anyone reading the above exchange honestly and PARSING IT CAREFULLY will find I did no such thing - you twisted it into an allegation of a personal attack. I was VERY careful in my choices of precise language. The "victim card" playing is also getting old and tired.
11) I stand by my OPINION that if "guys in suits" and their culture get you all riled up and angry very often that you could benefit from some counseling. Most of us could, for various reasons. Including me. Dragging around this much anger ain't healthy, really. Besides, the "real world" routinely dismisses ANYONE who presents as "angry", whether it's fair or not.
12) If you want to be a "big idea" type of guy, and leave the details of how to implement them to guys like me, that's fine. It's what I do. But you cannot IGNORE technical details. They're important! In some ways, they're MORE important than the policy generalizations from which they flowed. And then, after policy meets implementation details and becomes legislative language, you STILL have the remaining problem of political "pushback". It is ALWAYS ALWAYS easier to defeat a bill than pass one, and it will ever be such. One or two words can doom a 1000-page piece of brilliance.
==========================================
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
"Public sentiment is everything. With it, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed". --Abraham Lincoln
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Phillip Caine
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Phillip_caine
Post Number: 98
Registered: 3-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 10:07 am: |
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I don't have a guilty conscious. Your full of yourself, making things up again.
Whether or not I drink a couple beers after being pissed off from being slandered by a bunch of LIES from you Kurt is really none of your business, your opinion is insulting if not vilely insolent. Furthermore when you lie and slander who your talking to, it lowers the discourse to that equal to a TROLL.
I left Bradblog shortly after he started his Green News. Did you notice that? No? We disagreed. We still agree on paper ballots with an unbroken public chain of custody, and the outlaw of all electronic vote tabulation devices, but beyond that we parted ways. And actually I find it creepy you don't have a website.
You set up the anti-semitism, the word wasn't spoken until you spoke it first. Simply type in "ANTI" and hit F3 to search this page in your browser. YOU brought it up first, and then YOU targeted Me as a racist. You you can cut out your crap right now, Kurt. Me being a racist was invented by you. And you alone.
Stop it with the Logan Act already, I CAN'T EDIT my post, where I posted,
"They are foreign agents Kurt. They should be registered as such. Choosing to bury your head and not even acknowledge the problem is what keeps them in power. The Logan Act with TEETH is what these foreign agents and our creepy oath breaking officials need to be force fed. "
You are misinterpreting this. I am talking about using the Logan Act's framework which IDENTIFYS foreign agents, and to USE that INFORMATION from that base framework, to add information to a ballot which shows who a candidate, or measure, or proposition is INFLUENCED BY.
For example:
Lieberman would be listed on the ballot as:
Joe Lieberman (I), (APAC, CFR), (Finance & Investment, Pepsi)
If you want to call this registering foreign agents, I don't think there's anything more I can do to help you stop your re-directing of the conversation and spin.
(NOTE: I made the part up about Pepsi, it could be filled in with MSNBC, the MPAA or any corporation really. This is an EXAMPLE and it has ERRORS! So don't come back saying bla bla Lieberman ain't affiliated with MSNBC--I don't want to hear it if your not listening. IT IS AN EXAMPLE, if you read and understand the example you would stop your spun trash garbage with the Logan Act.)
Part of what I am talking about is already a reality Kurt, see here: http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/industries.php?cycle=Career&cid=N00000616
Except opensecrets doesn't really tell me WHICH corporation or foreign agent, has the biggest influence. It just lumps them together, with a donation amount. It doesn't get to the nitty gritty.
Just like having a D,R,I,L,G,P in front of your name tells me nothing about who your truly influenced by.
Furthermore, I'd "like to" see this information on the BALLOT not on opensecrets.
note: Where "Like to" means desire. Not force laws to be changed, like you accuse me of. It isn't Morphing, it's using the existing base framework / concept / idea embedded within the Logan Act. Perhaps you can visualize this best if you just imaging there's no such thing as the Logan Act, and the end result I am "suggesting" is that Candidate's, Measures, Propositions, have foreign and corporate influences IDENTIFIED on the ballot, like the example I GAVE ABOVE. This isn't ROUNDING up foreign agents like you keep accusing me of. This suggestion doesn't "Require" registering foreign agents like you keep saying over and over. It's putting extra INFORMATION on your ballot, Information which has clear meaning as opposed to having a D,R,I,L,G,P in front of your name, and then as soon as your elected, you roll out a bunch of garbage the opposite of what you said you would do. The problem is an ISSUE of TRUST. Just because you say your Republican or Democrat doesn't mean anything when you enable unconstitutional laws, and break your oath because you have a foreign influenced agenda! There's nothing Ranting about this.
I don't need your "license" to justify my thoughts and ideas. I am not under any BS of yours saying I have to dot my I's and cross my T's. Your not god, and your not an official. Your not representing law. And your sure the hell not going to keep telling me bad laws can't be changed. You can keep your bureaucratic red tape and doom and gloom attitude of how nothing can be changed. It can be changed by getting rid of the rotten people running the show by voting them out of office! But that can't be done if the public isn't informed of candidates foreign and corporate interests. Which is why I suggested this in the first place.
Your 8) above is nonsense. There are simple solutions, but simple solutions become impossible when the public has gatekeepers keeping out such ideas.
9) Suggests this Idea is off the cuff. Some of the best ideas are off the cuff and executed quickly. Furthermore the "well thought out" ideas have all been crap, or there would be NO NEED for BBV anymore.
10) LIAR. Search for the Key words WHO brought each of these LIES up first. Your a golden LIAR.
11) I don't need counseling, the anger is justified, the system is broken. Your spin to make it seem like a psychiatric problem instead of listening to what I said, is what is complete slander and unacceptable., and why I suggested you might end up visiting the dentist if you said such LIES directly to my face.
12) I ain't leaving nothing to you Kurt. What good are lawsuits, if someone simply gets the law changed just before your about to win in court? The problem is officials ignore common sense any time they have an agenda. Furthermore, YOU have ignored MY technical details over and over (outside of this thread) on the problem with the doping of chips and sources (foreign country) they come from. In that you would have to destroy each chip to reverse engineer it under an electron microscope to make sure the circuit wasn't tampered with. I've given you examples of the Pentagon and USAF have exactly this same problem with their chips. Somewhere I've heard they mitigate this problem with having their own Pentagon/Dod chip doping/manufacturing facility with their OWN oversight. (It's a slightly different problem than electronic voting)
If everyone gave up transparency, electronic voting would be just fine. Cause then you could double check your vote was registered correctly. But we have Transparency for a reason.
And I guess we can add "Guilty Conscious" and "victim mentality" to your list of LIES about me.
I don't want to be a "big idea guy", I'm here cause I saw a problem, and I know the solution. Whether or not it fits into your preconceived, and completely made up ideas doesn't. Furthermore the 500 minute editor doesn't help matters. When what you published has thoughts which are not completely edited in a final draft state.
You say in 9) above about how the consequences of proposals are insufficiently thought out. I bring your attention to the fact that using electronics which you can not see the signals in is a consequence of insufficiently thought out (or specifically planned) proposals which have become law. BAD LAW. BAD ELECTIONS. BAD OFFICIALS. |
Phillip Caine
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Phillip_caine
Post Number: 99
Registered: 3-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 10:39 am: |
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Kurt, We have a disagreement.
You keep saying I want the logan act to round people up, and or register them. I keep saying no I'm not.
You then inject new loaded materials in and cherry pick one thing and tie it to racism, ignoring the rest of the content, problems, and overall IDEA. Instead you shift the conversation to something it never should have been about. And when I take the bait and reply to your "shifted" conversation you hit me with by tracking down whatever freaking new variation of nonsense you made up and quickly letting lose with a though on it you take that and make it into a weapon. You anger me by slandering me with lies and sucker me into a veiled threat.
If we keep going here, By the end of the month or so you'll have everyone looking for me to be arrested as a god damn terrorist.
I know your trollish type. I should even have KNOWN BETTER than to have got suckered IN to your nonsense in the first place.
Now unlike Washington DC (where you never apologize) I actually apologized for my "veiled threat" Because, I am sorry that's posted and I can't remove it, or do anything except add. You have been a manipulative liar and you need to apologize for your lies. I can barely believe all the nonsense you've made up. I've tried over and over to clarify, but you simply dig the pit deeper, pouring more gas on.
Two words: I'm Sorry
You've heard them from me. Now lets hear them from you as well.
When I continually repeat NO |
Phillip Caine
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Phillip_caine
Post Number: 100
Registered: 3-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 11:12 am: |
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Furthermore can we somehow get this thread cleaned up as per BBV's TOS/AUP.
See even my last post has a straggler in there...
e.g. "When I continually repeat No"
I can't deal with the editor or something. Scrolling up and down in a little box text get jumbled up, then the 500 min cutoff.
We can be civil at least. Because otherwise we are both burning it up. I'm even willing to let everything go you said except the racism.
Your opinion is fine if you think I am a wild ranter, you can think whatever you must think. Technically your right I did "say" originally what you say about the Logan Act. But the problem starts where you can't seem to get it through your head, I don't want rounding of people up and or registering them under the Logan Act. Forget the Logan Act. No more. If I could edit it I wouldn't even bring it up at all.
I'll let the Bradblog thing go. Maybe I should head over and say hi? so you could just have the truth bent your way? Nevermind, okay I let it go.
What else needs psychiatric rubber room, we'll let that go, it's your opinion, that's fine, don't call me when your electronic device stop working I'll be in my straight jacket in the rubber room, or maybe rendered to a CIA camp if we keep going down the pit?
Guilty Conscious? Okay I'll let that go, I'm not sure what I am "Guilty" of. However, I am not admitting to any crime. And by letting it go, I let go your opinion only.
Victim? Agreed. I'll let it go.
I ask for ONE apology from You, for the RACIST ACCUSATION TROLLWORK.
Everything else we can agree to disagree. And in the future, If I still have an account, I may or may not ever respond to you in other threads. I probably will just ignore You, unless you bring up an ON target non "shifted" question.
Here's My problem with interacting with you.
When I start taking YOUR context and replying to it. a) I don't know your context sometimes until it's pointed out I'm wrong. b) because of "a" confusion without detailed on point clarification muddies everything. c) original idea is lost
ideas no matter how stupid are important. |
Phillip Caine
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Phillip_caine
Post Number: 101
Registered: 3-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 11:21 am: |
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I'm sorry for using vulgar slang. I want to clean it up. I can't. I've tried. No Guilt, I tried. |
Phillip Caine
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Phillip_caine
Post Number: 102
Registered: 3-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 11:53 am: |
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"As for your problems with those organizations (AIPAC, CFR, Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg, IMF, UNEP, etc.), how would we EVER address those without abridging or criminalizing free speech? "
Here's an updated answer. For clarification. (Remember I said Forget The Logan Act)
By listing the candidates on the ballot like so (note: As an example)
Joe Lieberman (I), (APAC, CFR), (Finance & Investment, Pepsi)
It would simply add anywhere from say 5 text characters to 200 text characters on the ballot. This would go a long way to having an informed population. Let the Measures, Propositions, Candidates etc. show McDonalds or Nascar or CFR or FOX or whatever interest proudly by their name/country/corporation/foreign interest/corporate media/or other organization.
I'm asking You Kurt for ONE apology, the RACIST ACCUSATION TROLLWORK. You took the word acronym AIPAC out of my incomplete list you added in the the word anti-semitism, thereby binding it, to it. Thereby binding me to anti-semitism. You need to apologize because this is what rubbed me the wrong way. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 3603
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 12:25 pm: |
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Phillip,
I apologize and I am truly sorry for using a time-honored (it's been done to me repeatedly, here and elsewhere) lawyerly kinda rhetorical dirtyish trick to IMPLY (I never stated it outright) that you may have a type of racist leaning regarding Israel and/or Jews.
Here is my ONLY defense for having done so. AIPAC, being used as a buzzword, DOES INDEED draw the instant charge of "anti-semite" from many highly activist Israel policy hawks. I'm sure you know that. I don't consider myself one of them, but you may have a different view. I get VERY NERVOUS about targeting anyone's nationality or religion, and especially when they get as intertwined as with Israel and Judaism. Call it one conservative's hyersensitivity from working daily in a VERY politically correctness oriented workplace. People here are REGULARLY almost looking for reasons to be offended.
As to your core policy proposal that started this all - I kind of like it. But I see two main problems. Others are more minor and can be dealt with fairly easily.
1) Where do you stop listing, ohh, let's call them, ... "affiliations"? And who decides what makes the cut? Do a candidate's adversaries get to choose labels for him, or does he himself? Isn't it all subject to who chooses?
2) What do you do with states that have a lengthy culture of not allowing election officials to put out any information about candidates? Go federal and override them? And what about the still small but growng trend of EVEN dropping party identifiers, as in Washington State? From now on, everyone will be running there unlabeled in a mass primary, and the top 2 advance to November. And on the flip side, you have MY state, PA, where parties are king, but by law mean exactly zero in policy or platform, as far as elections are concerned. Cripes, Phillip, here a registered Republican can run in a Democratic primary if he chooses. It's happened! (He can RUN in it, he just can't VOTE in it.)
Your core idea has undeniable merit in helping voters decide, but again there are those devilish details. For me, more info always beats less. Others above my paygrade disagree.
Again, sorry, old man, for the turn of phrase trick. I can appreciate your sensitivity, as a pretty progressive kinda dude, about things like racism. I get it. And for the record, I don't even SLIGHTLY believe you ARE a racist, but tageting AIPAC IS going to make SOME people think and say you are. So be careful about that, okay? There's a lot of hypersensitivity out there, you know? For some, criticizing Israel even slightly IS anti-semitism.
Regarding this quote from you:
"Just like having a D,R,I,L,G,P in front of your name tells me nothing about who your truly influenced by. "
Man, you are so much more right about that than even you think you are. I could tell you some stories that would curl your teeth, dude. "D" and "R' blur so badly here that Repubs and conservative DINO's (I hope you know that acronym) are a chronic working majority here. And the voters SEEM to like it that way.
Peace.
==========================================
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
"Public sentiment is everything. With it, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed". --Abraham Lincoln
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Phillip Caine
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Phillip_caine
Post Number: 103
Registered: 3-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 8:38 pm: |
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Alright Kurt, I accept your apology.
I also apologize to Catherine, She should be aware I have tried to contact Bev to get the vulgar slang out. I tried. I even asked Her to yank my account. I simply haven't gotten a reply.
While we have come to a truce/agreement.
The question begs how should this thread be cleaned leaving both of us with good character, while eliminating the noise, yet retaining the spirit of the idea?
I agree with you where you start saying,
1) Where do you stop listing, ohh, let's call them, ... "affiliations"
and 2) What do you do with states that have a lengthy culture of not allowing election officials to put out any information about candidates? Go federal and override them? And what about the still small but growing trend of EVEN dropping party identifiers, as in Washington State?
I don't have a ready answer. I can only present the idea as a solution to being uninformed because of being mis-led by traditional ideas, and corporate owned media interests. If the powers that be (TPTB) want to keep us uninformed about their foreign, or corporate, or organization interests, I'm not sure we can do anything about it. Which is why I thought up the idea. Actually time works against us. The longer it's not dealt with the more hidden and powerful it becomes. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 3604
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2010 - 7:11 am: |
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Yup, can't disagree with any of that. Unfortunately, modern political complexities in what motivates candidates comes PRECISELY when it at least SEEMS that voters have less inclination to dig deep, relying instaed on the sketchiest of data.
I share your frustration. I'm less convinced of your remedy. I am becoming a fan of mandatory free media time for candidates. That would normally violate everything I stand for, but the sweetheart deal they're getting for electromagnetic spectrum should come at SOME "public interest" price.
==========================================
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
"Public sentiment is everything. With it, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed". --Abraham Lincoln
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Phillip Caine
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Phillip_caine
Post Number: 104
Registered: 3-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2010 - 12:30 pm: |
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"mandatory free media time for candidates"
I think so too. Actually I had some thoughts on that awhile back. It would put in place so many problems. If not solved, at least placed/classified somewhere. To be sorted, as the bridges are crossed. Something has to eliminate the no more time to debate problem.. When especially now, debate is exactly what is needed.
I hope we aren't getting all buddy buddy.. heh I still need to clean my part of the thread somehow. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 3606
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2010 - 7:44 am: |
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Phillip,
Speaking for me only, I wouldn't worry so much about it. I'm really not offended, but I recognize some others might be. I grew up in a very tough inner city neighborhood. I've heard worse. I may have actually SAID worse. In fact, I'm sure I have.
That said, I know passion, and I've come to appreciate it for what it is - even when I disagree with it. Beats being a dud, in my opinion. I'd rather interact with a passionate advocate I disagree with than someone who can barely work up an "I dunno". I might try to use their own passions against them (as we found out), but if it causes someone to either rethink or better explain their thinking, then its all good.
I have this general feeling and experience that tells me that almost ALL of us have our own internal experiences and cultural influences that are so "self-evident" to each of us, and so many of us fall down in being able to relate these background elements well to others. There're enough bad experiences in my youth that explain my bad feelings toward what's typically called the "political left" to fill a doctoral dissertation. We are so often captives of our own experiences and cultures, me included. I've lived most of my life where "the left" has been chronically in power, and wielded it like a club.
==========================================
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
"Public sentiment is everything. With it, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed". --Abraham Lincoln
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Joel Morine
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Erased
Post Number: 383
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - 1:21 pm: |
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Doesn't a large part of what Kurt is referring to in last paragraph have to do with the misguiding inaptness of dichotomized terminology, specifically in this case "left" and "right".
In a manner akin to "garbage in, garbage out",
when our word-use categories are garbage,
(and we add to that each such term being a bit of garbage whose VennDiagram limits/shape differs from others),
garbage slinging mud at garbage is what we tend to deliver to, and in, each other? |
Joel Morine
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Erased
Post Number: 384
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 12:29 pm: |
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An edit to my prior post
to clarify what I was trying to say but didn't
(and we add to that each such term being a bit of garbage
becuz its VennDiagram limits/shape differ so much from person to person), |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 3630
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 1:31 pm: |
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Joel,
When I was in college, I read a book called "The Political Economy of the New Left". It was required reading. It's still on my bookshelf at home. In my town I grew up in, it was run by adherants to that book's descriptions and prescriptions. And they were VICIOUS power abusers.
Is it inappropriate to label them thusly? Why?
I am frankly troubled by people who are reflexively troubled by labels. When I hear someone object to labels, I hear someone trying desperately to hide something. Maybe it's just me.
Are labels often insufficient? Surely, yes. But the lack of labels allows concealment of contents, whether it's a product bottle or a political person.
So to me, while labels may be woefully inadequate, they are nonetheless highly useful.
==========================================
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
"Public sentiment is everything. With it, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed". --Abraham Lincoln
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