Navigation
Topics
Log In
Log Out
:
Special Search
New Today
New This Week
Advanced Search
Tree View
Your Account
Edit Profile
Register
Forgot Password
Tools
Help/Instructions
Policies
CLICK STATE TO SEE:
"WATCH LIST"
Marked with: 
"OPEN & HONEST"
Marked with: 
...
|
| pencil/paper/drop in the box |
|
| Author |
Message |
    
William Brandes
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Williambrandes
Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 9:44 am: | 
|
Is it true that nowhere in US uses pencil, paper, drop in box?
The word from the local BOE is that the above method of ballot/voting is not used in the USA anywhere. That HAVA made this type of voting illegal. Please post link and district(s) to confirm the contrary. Or, is it really true? They are using this "fact" as the first answer to build the case for the use of electronic voting machines. If this is suspect, I suspect anything and everything they say is. William |
V. Kurt Bellman
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 92
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 10:29 am: |
|
William,
They are basically correct, but it is too flippantly stated.
Under HAVA, "pencil, paper, drop in box" has a few problems.
1) It does not prevent overvoting, or notify the voter of undervoting.
2) It does not permit the visually handicapped from voting privately and independently.
While HAVA does NOT outlaw paper ballot voting, it does NOT allow such to be the ONLY method of voting in an area either. If paper ballot voting exists, it must be augmented with another style of voting system as well.
Even though we have not seen the state Supreme Court's written decision yet, that is the basis of the PA lawsuit that was decided against Mary Beth Kuznik in challenging electronic voting in PA. The lower court suggested that PA needed to use paper ballots for federal elections, and the PA Supreme Court overruled that court. The U.S. Department of Justice will likely sue for HAVA non-compliance any jurisdiction that uses plain old paper ballots as their only voting method.
As part of a package of options, it is fine under federal law, but not as the sole option. But state law ALSO needs to be considered. |
William Brandes
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Williambrandes
Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 11:35 am: |
|
OK. Now see if I finally have this right. Because of HAVA there is NO jurisdiction in the United States that has paper/pencil/drop UNLESS you consider that the drop=optical scanner?
So, my beef, if I think that paper to box SHOULD NOT be enhanced any way INCLUDING electronic, then my beef is with HAVA who in this scenario gave a big handshake to the businesses that make these machines. And, furthermore, no jurisdiction can retro to paper/pencil/drop in the box even if they want to.
This is all very interesting since I have a vision disorder and going blind. And, I, personally have no problem with voting absentee and having my wife and her eyes and pencil make my choices per my request. If all the above is true, then this country seems to have money for everything and sense for nothing. I find it all appalling. William
(Message edited by williambrandes on April 25, 2006) |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 2178
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 12:20 pm: |
|
William, I think different states interpret this differently. There was a good clarification of HAVA, legally binding I believe, by the EAC about what HAVA does and doesn't require.
HAVA does not rule out pen and paper--although many BOEs misrepresent this. It requires that there be some way to accommodate some disabled voters (such as the VotePad, which also uses pen and paper and no electronics; and DREs theoretically accommodate some disabilities).
Each state has its own certification rules, which limits which systems can be considered. Sometimes the state certification process gets mysteriously slow for one product, but very fast for another product, for equally mysterious reasons.
What Kurt has said may be true for PA due to its own state regulations, but not just because of HAVA.
HAVA does not rule out pen and paper. Hand-counting ballots is also ok. There is nothing in HAVA to force people to adopt electronic machines, even though many people present it as if it did. They do need to have some system to offer people with some disabilities--but they don't have to address the full spectrum of disabilities and they don't have to incorporate electronics as long as their state has certified another suitable option.
The text of the EAC's clarification is here. Perhaps someone else here will post the reference.
BOEs feel under pressure to buy electronics because the government will give them money to do so. This made them feel like they "had" to buy this equipment by the deadline in order to get the federal $$$. |
William Brandes
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Williambrandes
Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 1:35 pm: |
|
So, the more I read, the less I know  . I am from Blackwell's Ohio. Does that explain it? I will dig some more. Thanks for the replies.
Anyone else.  These have got to be the craziest smileys I've ever run into. William |
William Brandes
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Williambrandes
Post Number: 11
Registered: 12-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 1:41 pm: |
|
And, one last thing. Does a jurisdiction exist in the USA that uses paper/pen/drop in a box method of voting? For local, state and federal? If there is, this will kill this blather from the local BOE in it's tracks. William |
V. Kurt Bellman
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 95
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? 
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 7:42 am: |
|
William,
If such a jurisdiction exists, and intends to remain that way this year, you'd probably do well to search in the New England states, where old-fashioned paper balloting has a STRONG foothold. In particular, I'd look to New Hampshire, maybe Maine, too. I don't know what they're doing this year. It would be instructive to see if they are having their arms twisted, too.
I'd be willing to bet that Ohio has no non-electronic alternative for accessibility. VotePAD is failing certs in many states. AutoMark is failing in fewer states, but is failing in some.
With all due respect to posters here who object to the way states are handling certifications, a system that fails a state certification does so for a stated legal reason, not the whim of a SoS. All certification failures should be documented by a reference to a section of that state's law that the system would violate.
For examples, I point you below to PA's certification report webpage. If Ohio does not document theirs as well, you should complain about that.
By the way, please be aware that my state, PA, does have the most convoluted, difficult to understand, poorly indexed, arcane, restrictive, and detailed Election Code in the nation. Purdon's Title 25 is more than an inch thick, and the paper is onion skin thickness. PA needs a comprehensive "clean out" of its Election Code, and they know it. There are numerous statutes still in there which have been declared unconstitutional, but they're still in there. It's a mess.
Kurt |
V. Kurt Bellman
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 96
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 7:45 am: |
|
William,
The URL for PA cert reports is:
http://www.hava.state.pa.us/hava/cwp/view.asp?a=1283&Q=445840
Kurt |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 2188
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 8:06 am: |
|
I think Vermont may have some areas that are paper ballots, hand-counted. |
William Brandes
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Williambrandes
Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 8:37 am: |
|
Folks, thank you very much for this back to the basics discussion. And, the links to documents and information. I'll throw another one at you. I have heard that Canada, UK, Australia have paper ballots. What does that mean? Do they use paper/pencil drop in the box, optical scan, pure hand counts or what? The reason I ask, is that this line of reasoning gives credence to the possibility that WHOLE nations forgo mechanical/electronic and base their systems entirely on the human factor. A response would be appreciated.
And, yes, I am sure that Ohio went mechanical balloting a long time ago. Perhaps 19th century. Thanks. William |
William Brandes
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Williambrandes
Post Number: 13
Registered: 12-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 8:43 am: |
|
And, speaking of misinformation as I continue to get to the bottom starting with the basics, our own State Rep. 90th district (Republican Thom Collier), Ohio legislature, called into the program yesterday and said that folks should bring ID with them which was false information (and, we pay for that information). He was corrected by a BOE official on the program (good for her). The world is insane. William |
V. Kurt Bellman
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 98
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 8:59 am: |
|
William,
Folks who are voting for the first time, and registered remotely by mail should bring ID. Otherwise, consult state law.
As for those other countries, one reason that paper works SO MUCH BETTER in some places than others is the simplicity, or lack of it, of an election.
I am led to believe that in a typical parliamentary system election, one selects a party...PERIOD. Local elections are separated into a different election. Also, in most parliamentary systems, you don't separately vote for a head of state and a legislature, and you don't mix state and provincial elections with national ones.
We do all those things. In the U.S., a single ballot may simultaneously contain 30 or more offices, plus referenda, retention elections, bond issues, etc. And a single polling place may cast 4000 or more ballots, in some extreme cases.
In those kinds of cases, paper balloting simply will not work. No one will serve as polling place officials when faced with that task.
Now you may say we made those factors, and we can unmake them, and you'd be right. But just saying, "okay folks, paper and pencil" doesn't get the job done. Those fundamental procedural changes need to be done at least simultaneously, if not first.
Kurt |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 4259
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 9:05 am: |
|
As of the 2004 election there were many places still using this method. We know that from our Nov 2 2004 public records requests.
Does HAVA actually prohibit this method, if an alternate method is used for the disabled? Rhode Island has long had a paper ballot option for the disabled which is non-mechanical and therefore does not require certification. |
Linda Franz
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Linda_franz
Post Number: 255
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 9:21 am: |
|
William,
Hand counting ballots is pretty rare in the U.S. now.
Your terminology of "Paper/Pencil/Drop" should add, "hand counted," if you use it in a more formal application.
Using optical scann ballots as an example, in some counties the ballots are handled just as you describe- and after dropping in a ballot box, they are transported at the close of the election to a central counting location.
Some counties have machines at the polls, and the ballot will then be scanned there.
Were you to ask the question phrased as just, "Paper/Pencil/Drop," it could be answered, honestly, "yes," even though what you seem to be asking is about hand counting.
See how that works?
Kurt,
I agree that SOS should have to follow state law in rejecting certification of voting systems and if that is followed through in PA, congratulations. But it seems most SOS either have too much latitude, i.e., the law allows it to be up to them in the final crunch, or it's ignored, as, for example, with security issues.
I'd like to know if PA has a system like Washington State. Here, the law is RCWs and RCW Title 29A for elections. However, there is also something called Washington State Administrative Code, or WACs. These are the rules for how to carry out the law. (RCW's)
The SOS and Elections Office get to write the WACs for how to carry out election law.
It was only in the last legislative session that
the state legislature dropped the requirement that voting systems in Washington State had to meet the requirement of having been tested, certified, and USED in at least one other state or election jurisdiction.
Here's how the Secretary of State and the State Elections office reinterpreted this in the rules (WACs) in the past:
Voting systems must have been tested, certified, and PURCHASED in at least one other state or election jurisdiction.
This WAC was not consistent with state law. And WACs are not supposed to violate state law.
It was incongruous with the law and served to restrict options for voting systems, because certain vendors new to the turf, who had HAVA compliant systems (at least for the visually disabled, which was the primary focus at that time) and who met the requirement of the law because they had been used in several elections, were shut out. These new systems also complied with the voter verified paper record requirement passed last year in Washington.
It left some counties in a bind who had purchased DRE's without a VVPR, and also left counties waiting for the usual vendors to come up with something that would comply with state's VVPR law. All of that hassle was totally unnecessary.
(Not arguing here about whether DRE's are good, just how this went down and the effects)
All of this could have been circumvented if county election officials had had available to them systems that, by state law, could have been certified- but the "rules" were written otherwise.
(Yes, it's been a subject of contention) |
V. Kurt Bellman
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 100
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 10:36 am: |
|
Linda,
A short answer to your question abou implementation of state laws. No, there is ALMOST nothing like the Administrative Code in elections here. There is one small exception. There was a need for more detail in ensuring the implementation of our statewide voter registry than the legislature felt comfortable putting into statute, so they provided for a set of regulations having to do with the SURE system under 4 Pa. Code §183.
Our legislature RARELY cedes this kind of authority to the executive branch, but in this case, they did. The code deals with who is entitled to data from SURE, what paperwork is involved, how counties enter SURE system data - all registration system stuff. It was such a departure from decades of legislative stranglehold on everything that it took many counties by surprise. Months after it went into effect, many counties didn't even know it existed. It was weird.
And it was a culture shock to users of registration data, too. It used to be that bill collectors and private eyes used county election voter registration files to track down people. Under the new regs, they didn't have unrestrained access any more. They whined... A LOT! Voter registration information is not available for unrestrained access any more in PA. Stalkers of all kinds were stymied.
But in PA, discretion of the executive branch at the state level is near zero. The legislature controls 99% through statute. When Cortes' office sends a letter askinig a county E.D. for something, or directing them in any way, you can bet that the section number of state law is attached, or in many cases, the counties would tell him to "buzz off". |
Michael W Mather
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Gypsy
Post Number: 37
Registered: 07-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 1:23 pm: |
|
William,
In NH, 45% of the polling places use hand counted paper ballots ( http://www.democracyfornewhampshire.com/node/view/1928 ). However, to comply with HAVA, the state has contracted with IVS to provide a handicap accessible system for each polling place (this is an over-the-phone audio/push button system that prints a paper ballot via a facsimile machine, so it's mainly for the visually impaired.). The remaining counties use optically scanned paper ballots. As it stands now, these will be Diebold systems (plus the IVS for the handicap accessibility station). |
William Brandes
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Williambrandes
Post Number: 15
Registered: 12-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 3:57 pm: |
|
Thanks for the continuing info. Might enjoy this - http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/06/03/04/vote.html - local article. And, ... the screens are so colorful (now, that's an important attribute for a voting appliance) ... Yeah, colorful, just like our politicians/grin. William |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 2216
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 4:03 pm: |
|
This article keeps stressing that the machines are "easy to use." This is exactly the tack that was taken in Ireland in the PR campaign.
Nothing about accuracy or reliability. Just "easy to use." Gag.
(See my post earlier today about the good news from Ireland--voting machines have now been proclaimed a "dead duck" by the non-partisan Public Accounts Committee because they cannot be justified on a financial basis, let alone all the other issues.)
(Message edited by Catherine_a on April 28, 2006) |
William Brandes
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Williambrandes
Post Number: 16
Registered: 12-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 7:06 pm: |
|
Yeah. A pencil is easy to use/grin. And, alot cheaper. Saw your post/links. Good stuff. Keep them coming. I am for getting the human factor back into voting full time. Kill the machines. Here in Knox county feel good voting is in. Using an appliance twice a year is not close to justification, even if they did work as advertised. There is nothing wrong with the human factor intimately involved from top to bottom; voting/counting. We really do have all the time in the world. I know the writer of the article. A right wing hawk. If there were 99 % cons he would only print the pro. This is NOT an investigative newspaper. Long live Ireland!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cheers. William |
John Hudgins
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Monkeycat
Post Number: 8
Registered: 03-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 6:07 pm: |
|
Easy to use! The black boxes have got every other system beat in ease of use! We can just stay home and let them decide the elections for us.
(I believe dictatorships also beat out democracies in the "ease of use" category.)
Our E.D. here in California, doesn't seem to trust DREs (I wonder why?). He's complying with HAVA by putting one eSlate machine in every precinct. Most voting will still be done on the old Eagle optical scanners. This looks like a way to partially circumvent the DRE requirment.
Even one machine per precinct is expensive though, $3,500 times 572 precincts. Plus another $200,000 to modify county election storage facility, more for extra poll-worker training. |
William Brandes
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Williambrandes
Post Number: 25
Registered: 12-2005
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 10:35 pm: |
|
It is the morning after in Ohio, well, a couple mornings after. I will say a little about disability and investing in giving everyone the vote. My wife worked the polls. She listens. One elderly woman had problems with the touch screen and she helped her as she could. She found out by listening and probing that her husband, who could not walk unassisted was in the car, and, had not voted for a couple elections (they were not aware of abstentee/another shortcoming of the SOS and BOE's and media). Well, my wife did a curb-side (guess what, pen/ballot) and this gentleman got to vote. No HAVA, no freaking electronic machines, just a little caring about getting the vote to everyone. You know, if we spent more time listening and responding to these kinds of needs instead of spending a zillion dollars on impersonal electronics this county would be in much better shape. We have become apathetic robots. Can I say it one more time? Kill the machines. Before they kill us. |
Kathleen Wynne
Moderator
Username: Admin_ii
Post Number: 275
Registered: 08-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, May 5, 2006 - 7:19 am: |
|
William,
Since the entire election process has become privitized, politicized, mechanized and homogenized, there's very little room left for direct citizen involvement and oversight in the process at all.
I really understand your frustration with how impersonal electronic voting has made the voting process. I, too, resent how complicated the voting system has become, but it's our fault. We fell asleep at the wheel and let politicians and corporations take control of the whole process. The key is for us to educate the public of the absolute importance of citizen oversight in the entire voting process. Citizens cannot COMPROMISE on this, because it's the only way they can take back their elections.
You're not alone in your concern about these voting machines. There is a growing discontent amongst citizens throughout the country who feel these electronic voting machines cannot be trusted to deliver a secure election. In fact, a fellow Ohion, JoAnne Karasek, has been doing excellent work in providing an alternative to electronic voting and is becoming a leading advocate for hand counting, paper ballots at the precinct level. If you're interested, I can put you in touch with her. Getting involved with her group in Ohio is one way of putting your frustration to good use.
Kathleen
(Message edited by admin_ii on May 05, 2006)
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
TRIPLE PROTECTION FOR ELECTION 2006 - STARTING NOW:
(1) Use Freedom of Information, public records requests ("All American Paper Chase")
(2) Try Dumpster Diving for Democracy
(3) Candid America Project - Don't leave home without your camcorder
HOW TO DO IT: http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/6/6.html
|
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 172
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, May 5, 2006 - 7:46 am: |
|
William,
I agree with your points, however, curbside voting is not allowed by law in many states. I'm glad Ohio has it. The disabled community has been lobbying HARD in my state for curbside voting, and the legislatutre won't pass it.
These machines aren't in polling places because everyone loves the idea of them. HAVA came within a short distance of requiring them, and then some states went further with HAVA enabling legislation and took it the rest of the way.
I know that absolutely every polling place in my state, due to a combination of HAVA and state law, must have either a DRE or an Optical Scan scanner in each polling place, period. And if they don't have a DRE, they have to have an AutoMark with their OpScans. The non-electronic VotePAD has been rejected by both the state, and disability advocates in my state.
And not only is curbside voting not allowed, but a voter may not opt to do a traditional non-opscan paper ballot at all, unless he needs a provisional ballot, wherein he MUST vote a traditional paper ballot.
Yes, your suggestions come from the realm of common sense. This is unfortunately a realm in which election administrators are frequently not allowed to operate.
In 2004, several county election dircetors knew they potentially faced lawsuits from accessibility advocates over not allowing curbside voting, and asked the Secretary of State's office for clearance to do it. We were told that possession of a ballot outside the confines of a polling place while polls were open is a crime, and we risked criminal prosecution if we allowed curbside voting.
That's how weird this gets. |
ed hill
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ed_hill
Post Number: 132
Registered: 03-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, May 7, 2006 - 2:02 pm: |
|
i remember a few years back. rumors around MIT were that the only secure use of computers in the voting process was as an easy way to mark ballots.
in this computers were likely to improve tabulation accuracy through consistant marking for hand counts.
that useage also facilitates accessability for the disabled.
does HAVA specify machine counting? sorry, but i've not yet read the beast.
seems to me using computers to vote and reading glasses to count is a win-win. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 2325
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, May 7, 2006 - 2:44 pm: |
|
No HAVA does not specify machine counting. It also doesn't specify machine voting, even though lots of people think it does. It's just misinformation that keeps being repeated. |
William Brandes
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Williambrandes
Post Number: 31
Registered: 12-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 9:02 pm: |
|
The Wall Street Journal (who would have thought) wrote the most damning piece to date from mainstream media. The steamroller is gathering steam. Can I say it again? Just kill the machines. I have written the article up in entirety on my blig - http://www.god-space.net/article.php?story=20060512233011969 - and, I also sent our local BOE officials there, if they can figure how to use a mouse/grin. William |
Karen Renick
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Karen_renick
Post Number: 2
Registered: 08-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 10:52 pm: |
|
William,
Here in Texas, there are 87 counties that still use hand-counted paper ballots. Go to <http://www.sos.state.tx.us/elections/laws/bycounty.shtml> for a list of all Texas counties and the type of voting system/method each one uses.
Karen Renick
Austin, TX |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 2379
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 5:00 am: |
|
William, for maximum impact you can post info such as the WSJ article in the Forum section for News (Mainstream News) using the format of the other entries there. It'll make it easier to find this article if anyone wants to go back and reference it, or for journalists looking for documentation from mainstream news sources. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 249
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 11:43 am: |
|
Karen,
Your (Texas) HAVA State Plan (on page 4) also states:
"All polling places will be required to be equipped with at least one DRE no later than January 1, 2006 pursuant to House Bill 1549."
Yes, the principal method in many places is hand counted paper, but even in those Texas counties, there will also be DRE's. |
Adam Stiles
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ajs726
Post Number: 4
Registered: 05-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 4:44 am: |
|
Pencil, paper, drop-in box, hand-count is how elections have always been conducted in the UK.
We use templates for the benefit of blind and partially sighted people, and we also have a very simple system for helping people with other disabilities: disabled persons are allowed to bring a carer whom they trust with their vote to the polling station with them. Anything which goes awry is then a matter between the disabled person and their carer. |
John Kesich
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: John_kesich
Post Number: 21
Registered: 01-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 12:18 pm: |
|
V. Kurt Bellman wrote, "And not only is curbside voting not allowed ... We were told that possession of a ballot outside the confines of a polling place while polls were open is a crime, and we risked criminal prosecution if we allowed curbside voting."
I heard numerous Tioga County PA officials state that the voting machine could be carried to a voter's car if need be. First at dog-and-pony shows for the AVS WINvote they initially contracted for and then the Diebold TSX which they got after AVS reneged.
Are you saying that taking a DRE out of a polling place during an election would be illegal? Or don't the electronic ballots in DREs count? |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 293
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 12:27 pm: |
|
To my knowledge taking a DRE out to a curb would not be legal. |
Michael C. Duff
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Seemlessweb
Post Number: 6
Registered: 05-2006
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 11:34 am: |
|
I am a (soon to be former) attorney with the National Labor Relations Board. One of our tasks is to run workplace elections determining whether employees want to be represented by a union. I have run hundreds of these kinds of elections. The only type of election the NLRB has ever permitted is pencil, paper ballot, standard ballot box, hand-counted ballots. Some of these elections involve 1000s of employees. While I have experienced election objections for all kinds of reasons arising under the labor laws, I have never had a "process" objection, and they almost never occur at the NLRB. It has always been recognized that because emotions run so high in labor relations contexts any process used has to be completely, utterly transparent. This has been the situation since 1935. I realize this is far from a perfect analogy, I offer it only to reinforce the notion (and provide arguments for use against state officials) that paper balloting is possible. |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 4963
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 1:12 pm: |
|
Hi, Michael and welcome to Black Box Voting.
We're glad to see that you are using paper and pencil. The IBEW quite frequently uses Diebold machines, as do other labor unions. Of course, paper ballots can be gamed too -- we have credible reports of union members being given ballots that are already filled out, and told they have to ask for a blank one if they want it. We have another very credible report of a union election that manipulated the paper ballots being run through a Diebold scanner, such that batches of them would not be counted by the machine. (Those were later counted behind closed doors by hand.)
We're very glad to see you here, and look forward to any other information you can share regarding union and employee elections. |
Michael C. Duff
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Seemlessweb
Post Number: 7
Registered: 05-2006
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 1:39 pm: |
|
Hi Bev, Glad to be here.
As you are probably aware, internal union elections are regulated by the Department of Labor, and I think that is the type of election you are referring to in your IBEW example.
The election to determine whether a union (any union) will represent employees in private sector workplaces (the kind I was talking about)is entirely paper and pencil and has been since 1935. There have been proposals over the years that the NLRB go to various types of electronic or telephonic systems. Each such proposal has been met with howls of protest because of the potential for tampering. (Bear in mind that employees in workplace elections vote at a clip of about 90% and that the margin of victory is often razor thin.) There is no possibility of the pre-filled out ballot gaming you mention. Ballots are independently prepared in advance of the election by regional office elections personnel in a color that is not even known to the Field agent conducting the election until the envelope containing blank ballots is opened at the polling place. No system is perfect. But in 10 years of running these things I have never had or heard of a tampering problem. The Field agent is also the ultimate arbiter of ambiguous ballot markings. Those determinations are not subject to administrative or judicial review. The reason that much discretion is afforded is that those types of problems almost never arise. |
Jo Anne Karasek
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Jo_anne_karasek
Post Number: 135
Registered: 08-2005
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 11:46 pm: |
|
Kurt, you wrote,
"We do all those things. In the U.S., a single ballot may simultaneously contain 30 or more offices, plus referenda, retention elections, bond issues, etc. And a single polling place may cast 4000 or more ballots, in some extreme cases.
In those kinds of cases, paper balloting simply will not work. No one will serve as polling place officials when faced with that task."
Kurt, do you have any kind of survey or study that shows that hand counted paper ballots will not work where there are many races and/or issues or several thousand voters? Do you have any kind of surveyor study that no one will serve as polling place officials in that case? Or are you giving your own opinion or the opinion of some others as fact.
The reality is that millions of ballots can be hand counted. Washington State did that in the close governor's race in 2004-2005.
There are various ways to hand count, some of which are faster. Hand counting can be made faster by having more counters. Hand counting can be made easier by having precinct counting, and by having smaller precincts. Many issues and races can be handled more easily by separate ballots for federal versus state, some suggest giving them different colors to quickly tell them apart. Not one of these ways for greater efficiency in hand county is required--only recommended.
And if a polling place official will not do hand counted paper ballots when provided for in the law, they should be thrown out. A polling place official's job is to comply with the will of the people, not subvert it. |
|
|
