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Ken Davis
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Fremont_troll
Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 9:27 am: | 
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I am going today to act as observer of the first (that I know of) L & A testing of this unit. All I know is it is a Diebold unit.
Last month, I saw what might have been a test unit in the EDC Warehouse and in the 2 min I had to sidle over to it and look, I noted it had no logos, serial numbers, model numbers and a number of ambiguous looking input/output ports that could have been card slots and rj11/45.
I will try to get all the info I can, but in case anyone is in downtown seattle today, usually when I am called in to act as a party observer, then citizen observers are also allowed.
should be 1 pm on the 5th floor of the county admin building (elections office)
It is not listed on the web site and my call to the front desk got me a promise to find out the details and call back...
Kinda normal organization situation there. |
Mike Myhre
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Mike_myhre
Post Number: 23
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 9:31 am: |
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I thought King County went to all mail in ballots (just like snohomish county).
Why are they testing electronic machines? |
Ken Davis
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Fremont_troll
Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 9:54 am: |
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It seems there will be depots set up in outlying areas as well as at the courthouse, as disabled voter polling places... I hope to get the details today.
The all mail will not start until 2007 I think and they will still have a few specific locations using touchscreens and/or helpers to assist disabled voters.
I think it is a requirement of the HAVA act. |
Mike Myhre
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Mike_myhre
Post Number: 24
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 10:16 am: |
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That is the question I asked in this post.
I don't think there is a HAVA requirement for ELECTRONIC voting machines. What is more handicap accessible than a mail in ballot? Are we to believe that all voters vote on mail in ballots, but the handicap are the only ones that need to actually go to the polls?
Snohomish County (Washington) is now all mail in ballot with no electronic machines for disable voters. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 93
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 10:34 am: |
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The United States Department of Justice will not smile kindly on Snohomish County if that is their plan. There needs to be a plan for the disabled, especially the visually disabled, to vote independently and privately. The technology to do that with a paper ballot is not yet fully developed or agreed upon by the powers that be.
Several areas have tried to go the paper route, and have been "smacked upside the head" by USDoJ. |
John Gideon
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Johngideon
Post Number: 217
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 11:19 am: |
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http://www.votetrustusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1225&Itemi d=113
Washington Voter Files HAVA Complaint
This article explains the process and includes a copy of the complaint I filed against the Diebold TSx machines that are the subject of this discussion. |
Ken Davis
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Fremont_troll
Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 3:54 pm: |
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test is postponed. Seems the Chinese language aufio module was inop...
it seems to be a diebold TSX so I will look for info on that before I go back. Should be in the next couple of days. |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 4237
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 5:31 pm: |
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Props, John, for the lawsuit and thanks for the article. |
John Gideon
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Johngideon
Post Number: 218
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 5:56 pm: |
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It's not a lawsuit. It is a complaint as mandated by Sec. 402 of HAVA. The state now has 90 days to respond and they must hold a hearing at my request (which I did). I have no illusions that I will get anywhere but they will have to put a lot of lies into public records now.
Every citizen has the right to do this in every state that accepted HAVA funds. Complaints can only be on past, present, or future violations of Title III of HAVA. |
Ken Davis
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Fremont_troll
Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2005
Best of Black Box? 
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 7:40 pm: |
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Note for the interested...
My pocket wireless detector noted a strong signal both inside and outside the elections office called KPT1 with no WEP and using the "G" 5.4 mhz band.
I did not try to access it or otherwise actively probe it so I cannot say it is "open". but it would be interesting to find out if it is accessible from 6th ave...
It could also originate on another floor/department entirely.
If an admin feels this is too much info please nuke this message. |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 4253
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 11:55 pm: |
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The Diebold TSx machines show significant wireless capability, both physically and in the source code. However, it may be a two-step process. I'm sure I don't know what I'm talking about and I have to wait for the report like anyone else, but I believe Harri did signal sniffing and didn't find any evidence of anything live -- at that particular moment -- in that particular location. Considerable effort was put into the TSx by its designers towards enabling wireless and networking, however.
Also, whenever the machines are not in the cradle they start seeking. Seeking what, we're not sure. "Hello, hello, where is my mother?" "Do you have an election to load on me?" "Can I have my plug and play now please?"
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V. Kurt Bellman
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 94
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 7:16 am: |
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Bev,
Speaking STRICTLY from recollection, I believe that both Diebold and Advanced Voting Solutions made an attempt to sell as a feature their wireless networking capability, when they thought I was a prospect. I know they wanted to use it to upload (download?) the election database to the individual voting machines. I don't recall whether they were using it for tabulation.
In my state, it matters not. All use of wireless networking in PA is prohibited by restrictions made by Pedro Cortes' office in the certifications. |
Linda Franz
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Linda_franz
Post Number: 254
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 8:21 am: |
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Kurt, my recollections of Advanced Voting Solutions was also that they promoted the use of wireless for upload purposes.
Use of wireless is prohibited in some other states, too.
Trouble is, "use" is not the same as "capable" and having that capability in any voting machine should not be allowed.
Yeah, I've heard the argument that it takes too long to upload data otherwise if you have gadzillions of these systems.
Isn't it great that HAVA tried (caveat) to require DRE's such that states were inclined to purchase them for everyone to vote on? The exponential increase in security problems, besides the non-verifiability of true voter intent, is staggering.
And the maintenance, updates, tech support....the costs of this new voting technology just keep rolling on...
Ballot templates and the new vote pad: really low-tech DRE's. There are other options out there. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 99
Registered: 04-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 9:18 am: |
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Linda,
Right again, except for one TINY thought.
"true voter intent" is the language that created "Bush v. Gore" in the first place.
"Intent of the voter" is now a legal minefield. One of the reasons we now have pervasive DRE's is to avoid "intent of the voter" issues. With a DRE, it dosn't matter what the voter's "intent" was, it matters what he DID.
The Supreme Court has said that "intent of the voter" is unobjectionable as a premise and a starting principle, but the search for it must be constrained by objective criteria to ensure its uniform application. That means either a set of frequently arcane and incomprehensible rules for document ballots, or a system that is fully objective, without intent issues. Most jurisdictions prefer the latter. The former creates lawsuits. Local jurisdictions don't like lawsuits. |
