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Bette Bates
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Bette
Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 8:56 am: | 
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I haven't done this before and hope it will work. Our county Board of Elections has recommended the commissioners
purchase new ES&S touch screen machines with an enclosed
paper printer. They will be deciding in a few weeks.
North Carolina now requires a paper trail. But I'm concerned than an enclosed roll of printed votes that is not
separate from the machine itself can't be verifiable. I'm trying
to find out the exact model of this machine, but it's new and
so am wondering if ES&S only has one of this kind currently.
Do you have any information on it? I need some facts about
why it's not a good thing to purchase.
I'd much prefer hand-counted paper ballots, or even optical scan. Thanks, and thank you for this amazing website!
Where do I go to find your response? |
Pat Vesely
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Pat_vesely
Post Number: 38
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 9:12 am: |
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Hi Bette! Welcome to Black Box Voting.org.
What County are you in? I'll see what I can dig up in answer to your questions. As far as "where to find responses" is concerned, you can either check back here directly or you can go to the "Edit Profile" page (Link on the left) and check the "e-mail" alert feature for any forum here or just for responses to your specific posts.
Pat A. Vesely ;-)
Paper ballots are the 'Currency of Democracy'. They've been helping to curb election fraud since 139 BCE!
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Bette Bates
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Bette
Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 9:25 am: |
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Pat, Thanks I'm glad this worked. I'm in Buncombe County,
NC. I'd appreciate any information you can find about the
machine. |
Pat Vesely
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Pat_vesely
Post Number: 39
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 9:34 am: |
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I'll see what I can find out. Check back in an hour or so. We're getting some high winds and heavy rain here today (5"-7" expected today with wind gusts to 60+ mph!) and my lights have been flickering all morning but I'll do what I can while the power is still on. 
Pat A. Vesely ;-)
Paper ballots are the 'Currency of Democracy'. They've been helping to curb election fraud since 139 BCE!
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Bette Bates
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Bette
Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 10:12 am: |
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That sounds really dramatic! I'll check back this evening.
Hope your power stays on. Thanks again. |
Pat Vesely
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Pat_vesely
Post Number: 40
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? 
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 11:28 am: |
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I'll start you off with a few links that you might find useful. First, here's a link to the North Carolina Board of Elections web site.
http://www.sboe.state.nc.us/
Here's a direct link to the NCGA General Statutes - Chapter 163. Elections and Election Laws.
(Updated September, 2005, through S. L. 2005-430)
http://www.sboe.state.nc.us/pdf/Chapter%20163%20-1018.pdf
Here's a link to some 'Voting Equipment FAQ's' published for your elections officials that contains some hints.
http://www.sboe.state.nc.us/voterweb/votingequ.htm
Contact Information for Buncombe County Board of Elections.
Buncombe
M-F (8:30-5:00)
Ms. Trena Parker
BUNCOMBE.boe@ncmail.net
Mailing Address:
PO Box 7468
Asheville, NC 28802
Street Address:
189 College Street
Asheville, NC 28801
Phone: 828-250-4200
Fax: 828-250-6262
Here's a link to the N.C. Senate Bill 223 mandating the paper record of each vote.
http://www.ncleg.net/Sessions/2005/Bills/Senate/HTML/S223v6.html
More on that here,
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Sessions/2005/FiscalNotes/Senate/PDF/SFN0223v5n1.pdf
Here's a breakdown of cost comparisons between systems proposed for use in your county.
http://www.cs.duke.edu/~justin/voting/costs/BUNCOMBE.html
I'm still trying to locate the 'official' list of equipment 'certified' for use in your state.
Pat A. Vesely ;-)
Paper ballots are the 'Currency of Democracy'. They've been helping to curb election fraud since 139 BCE!
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Pat Vesely
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Pat_vesely
Post Number: 41
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 12:56 pm: |
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We've had 3.68" of rain so far as of 12:00 noon and the worst is still to come. But I've still got lights!
I still haven't found anything 'official' as far as a list of equipment that has been "certified" for use in your state but other evidence leads me to believe that what you want to know about is the ES&S 'iVotronic' DRE terminal with the added "Real Time Audit Log" using a thermal 'roll' printer.
http://www.essvote.com/HTML/products/ivotronic.html
http://www.essvote.com/HTML/products/ivotronic_rtal.html
The biggest problem I see with this system, aside from the obvious computer security issues, is the fact that one could conceivably tell how people voted by watching who voted on which machine, and in what order, then comparing the ordered ballots on the roll. There's lots of controversy over the use of these systems. I'll see what kind of testimony I can locate about it from some of the 'experts' out on the front lines of this debate.
Pat A. Vesely ;-)
Paper ballots are the 'Currency of Democracy'. They've been helping to curb election fraud since 139 BCE!
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Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 1809
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 1:10 pm: |
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Also many people have pointed out that the toilet-paper roll style of "paper trail" would be a nightmore to use for a recount because you'd have to cut all the votes apart first, or otherwise deal with this long roll of paper. And in some cases the print on the paper roll is very tiny--too small for many people to read. Don't know what it's like with this one. |
Stuart Wright
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Stuartwright
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 11:11 am: |
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ES&S iVotronic with paper trail info.
Franklin County Ohio used a few of these machines in a special election for the New Albany - Plain Local School District on Feb 7 2006, and will use them county-wide in the May 2 primary election.
I am told that the printer for the paper roll uses ink to produce a record that should last longer than the images from a thermal printer. The type is very small, and there are large blank spaces between entries, so that only the most recent 9 selections can be viewed at one time. The printer prints after each selection is made, so the voter should check each selection to make sure it prints correctly. If the voter is unaware of this and waits until the summary to check the paper trail, the top of the ballot will no longer be visible, and there is no way to reverse it to check the selections that have been moved out of sight.
Concerns about privacy are especially valid for provisional ballots, which Franklin County OH plans to mix with the regular ballots on the same machines. On the paper tape, the provisional ballots will have a number to match with the number on the affidavit that the provisional voter must fill out before voting. A rule that no one should be permitted to view both the affidavit and the paper tape ballot is intended to preserve privacy.
A separate printer can be plugged in to print out tapes showing zero totals at poll opening and vote totals at poll closing, so that the election officials can tear off these tapes and post them at the polling place. The paper trail rolls remain inaccessible to the officials at the polling place, so the officials are unable to sign those tapes, which stay inside the machines until they are transported to a central location. |
Pat Vesely
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Pat_vesely
Post Number: 62
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 11:21 am: |
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Thank you Stuart! Good info to know.
Pat A. Vesely ;-)
Paper ballots are the 'Currency of Democracy'. They've been helping to curb election fraud since 139 BCE!
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William Brandes
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Williambrandes
Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 5:50 pm: |
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Can anyone go to this article and ascertain what model of this machine are going to be in use in Knox county, OH for the next election? See any problems?
http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/06/02/22/voting.html
Perception IS Reality
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Bette Bates
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Bette
Post Number: 5
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 1:32 pm: |
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Stuart,
Thanks for the info from Franklin County about ES&S DRE's
with printers.
It's interesting that if a voter waits until the summary they
can no longer see the top of the ballot.
So if there were many races one can look at the printing
of each race they've voted for, but cannot go back once they
reach the bottom of the ballot to re-read it?
Also, are you saying if there were a paper recount with
these machines, it could not be done at the precinct
(you said it has to go to a central location?) but would
have to travel to the Board of Elections office and be
counted there?
Do you know if anyone in Franklin County did a paper recount
of any of these paper roll ballots?
Thanks.
Bette |
Jo Anne Karasek
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Jo_anne_karasek
Post Number: 109
Registered: 08-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 9:04 am: |
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Stuart wrote:
Concerns about privacy are especially valid for provisional ballots, which Franklin County OH plans to mix with the regular ballots on the same machines. On the paper tape, the provisional ballots will have a number to match with the number on the affidavit that the provisional voter must fill out before voting. A rule that no one should be permitted to view both the affidavit and the paper tape ballot is intended to preserve privacy."
The secret ballot can be lost through seeing both the affidavit for a provisional ballot and the provisional ballot itself, unless the identifying information is redacted on the affidavit.
It is a denial of due process to block the public from seeing the redacted provisional affidavits and the rejected provisional ballots, especially since there is evidence that rejected provisional ballots are rejected on the basis of party/candidate choice of the provisional voter.
Even numbering the provisional ballot itself to match the provisional affidavit is a violation of the secret ballot.
And, of course, most of us know that absentee ballots/early voting/voting by mail can be traced to the voter, with violation of the secret ballot, in most voting machine systems. |
Jo Anne Karasek
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Jo_anne_karasek
Post Number: 110
Registered: 08-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 9:28 am: |
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William Brandes, the Knox County, Ohio voting machines will be ES&S DREs in the next election. I have a private schedule that shows the machines for 2006 in every Ohio county. But if you don't know, you can also tell they are talking about ES&S and a paper trail. Paper trails are connected with DREs [and paper ballots (not hand counted) with optical scans].
DREs present numerous problems. You can search DRE, problem at www.google.com and find many.
ES&S presents numerous problems. You can search ES&S at www.google.com and find many. See for example, http://www.votersunite.org/info/ES&Sinthenews.pdf
You can also search ES&S, iVotronic (the DRE model), problems.
See also for example, the table of contents at page 5 of http://www.votetrustusa.org/pdfs/MB2.pdf |
William Brandes
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Williambrandes
Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 8:22 pm: |
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Jo Anne. I never said thanks. So, thanks for the response and the info. William |
