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Message |
    
melodee hallett
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Insmort
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 10:41 pm: | 
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-- from M. Hallett, Salida CO
Looking for more info on ES&S machines -- I am trying to bring attention to our county voting officials as to problems with ES&S software/firmware. I would like some current distinct problems with the company that would prompt a further look at the use of their software/firmware. Am I right in pursuing this?
M. Hallett
Salida, CO. |
John Washburn
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Johnwashburn
Post Number: 254
Registered: 04-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 3:40 am: |
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Try this page from Votersunite.org: Failures by Vendor: ES&S. this is the ES&S specific page for the Failures grouped by Vendor page
John Washburn
Only bad software is delayed by good testing.
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BBV Admin
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 2734
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 7:15 am: |
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Melodee, welcome to Black Box Voting!
A couple questions... are you working on finding out about your current system, or are you working on evaluating an upcoming purchase decision by your county?
If the ES&S equipment is your current equipment, do you know how old the ES&S equipment is? And are you using paper ballot ES&S machines, or touch-screens?
My guess is that if this is about current equipment, you have one of the older ES&S systesm, probably optical scan (paper ballot).
I believe that system was inherited from Business Records Corp. when ES&S acquired BRC. If you've got those machines, a search on the BRC system would also be relevant.
Election officials sometimes refer to the old BRC crowd as "crooks" -- and with good reason. The list of indictments of BRC employees was impressive.
If this is about an upcoming purchase, you need to find out what model is being considered. ES&S has several kinds of voting machines, and arguments are not effective when they compare apples to oranges.
More info would help us give you more specific help.
If this is too much information to request, let's just start by finding out if your questions pertain to the system currently in use in Salida, or to a new system they might be considering purchasing.
Bev Harris |
melodee hallett
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Insmort
Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 8:44 pm: |
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Bev, I have had a little trouble coming up to speed on how this site works.
I believe I am starting to figure it out.
I was inquiring on current equipment.
I posted another inquiry before I found you had been responding to me on the site.
It appears I need to look into BRC. I got from our election officials the Eagle optical scanner and ES&S software. It was from your site on our county showing we had ES&S firmware, as I recall.
We appear to have little problems that are said to never change the real outcome. This has happened several times in the last two elections and it makes me wonder? I don't doubt diligence on the officials part, but the errors are there.
M. Hallett
Salida, (Chaffee County) CO. |
melodee hallett
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Insmort
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 12:21 pm: |
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John and Bev, Thanks for the info.
M. Hallett |
John Washburn
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Johnwashburn
Post Number: 261
Registered: 04-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 3:20 pm: |
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BRC (Business Records Corporation) and ES&S are the same in the sense that ES&S bought BRC and acquired the BRC assests such as the BRC optical scanner and attendant software
John Washburn
Only bad software is delayed by good testing.
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melodee hallett
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Insmort
Post Number: 5
Registered: 11-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 9:02 am: |
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Thanks for the info.
In our paper today, we had an election reversed because of the optical scanner misreading ballots. Our Secretary of State ordered our county to recount votes and it was worthwhile.
John, are you saying our Scanners are probably BRC? Don't they have ES&S software/firmware tabulating the votes? I will check in on BRC.
Thanks again,
M. Hallett
Salida, CO. |
melodee hallett
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Insmort
Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 4:54 pm: |
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Jen, Thanks for the link. After reading your web site, I don't know if anyone who has integrity and wherewithal to create good election equipment would be allowed to exist in our wonderful world of voting vendors. Makes me wonder how Bev and the rest of you keep digging and plodding along knowing you are mining in an abyss of corruption. I admire all of your hard work.
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melodee hallett
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Insmort
Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 5:55 pm: |
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Funny, I sent an email yesterday asking about what software or equipment you might suggest for our county that is going to be looking next week and it disappeared.
M. Hallett |
BBV Admin
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 2978
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 7:50 am: |
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Melodee, if you sent it, and I got it, I'll let you know. Sometimes that happens to me, and it means I accidentally switched the setting that says to save outgoing email.
Bev |
melodee hallett
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Insmort
Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 9:06 pm: |
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What happened to the software designed by Athan Gibbs and is it possible to recoup it with the 2 paper trail system he was supposed to have made before he died in the auto accident?
Do you have any suggestions as to what to use for voting equipment and or software for Chaffee county in CO? Or, is it the lesser of evils or none of the above? M. Hallett |
John Howard
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Harmonyguy
Post Number: 168
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 9:50 pm: |
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Appears to be 200+ pages of ES&S Michigan contract - much interesting stuff.
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/E_S_&_S_Cost,_Training,_and_Project_Mgt_Summar y_89497_7.pdf |
BBV Admin
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 3002
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 6:18 am: |
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Great catch, John. Downloaded and we're going through it now. |
John Howard
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Harmonyguy
Post Number: 169
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 7:37 pm: |
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Bev - please check your email - important reading ahead. Some real gems!
HG |
John Howard
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Harmonyguy
Post Number: 170
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 7:51 pm: |
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From the above document: P 205
12. With a modem in the Model 100, is it possible to dial into the unit?
The Model 100 uses an analog modem which provides the ability to transmit results
data via a standard voice grade line that is secured for data. The line should be direct
and not require access through a digital PBX phone switching station.
Can't they just spell YES or NO?
Or, maybe they couldn't spell non-respondent answer!
Sheesh!
HG |
melodee hallett
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Insmort
Post Number: 9
Registered: 11-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 10:51 am: |
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Hi, I think you have lost me on your answers.
Thanks |
melodee hallett
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Insmort
Post Number: 10
Registered: 11-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, January 6, 2006 - 12:10 pm: |
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I talked to our voting official who is about to purchase new voting equipment and it seems she doesn't seem too impressed with blackboxvoting from a past experience. ha! So, I don't think I am going to be able to convince her to let you run a test on Chaffee counties equipment which should be the Eagle optical scanner. They didn't reveal to us what they are purchasing in her article in the local paper. M. Hallett |
BBV Admin
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 3125
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, January 6, 2006 - 12:51 pm: |
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To Melodee or anyone else who visits this page:
If you can get to "yes" with your election official, who cares if it is Black Box Voting that does the test and we're happy to have people we know consult behind the scenes if that's what it takes.
Believe me, there are many qualified people out there who can do the test, so don't limit yourselves to Black Box experts.
I'd have to look -- we haven't had much contact with Chaffee County, Colorado but I do recall a county in Colorado who, when we sent a public records request asking for what kind of equipment was used, called the request "vexatious and groundless" and denied the request on that grounds. I can't recall that we've had dealings with Colorado officials except through the mail, other than Boulder County Colorado, and the secretary of state's office who we are wrestling with on a wrongly denied public records request for copies of ballot images.
Thanks, Melodee, for the insights.
Bev Harris |
melodee hallett
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Insmort
Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 11:07 am: |
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Are there any citizens in Colorado getting involved in the meetings being held around the state to pick new elections equipment? Wed. Jan 18th appears to be the beginning of the meetings where vendors will make their presentations to the clerks of various counties, as I understand. There may be a series of 6 meetings.
I am not finding much participation by the public in my area and it amazes me as to the little interest at such an important area of decision.
Can we not stir up some interest to get our state steered in a direction to get equipment running as it should and or getting software and vendors with proper running equipment?
We are replacing our scanners when just getting a different light to read the marks and or making sure everyone uses pencils may do the trick.
My suggestion is in smaller counties to have a similtaneous hand count and or if we are stuck with buying new equipment to look at some other options like rent with option to purchase. Maybe we could hold the money back until we have reliable vendors and equipment? Could we retrofit, test, and recertify what we have? Possibly we could use two double blind votes taking place at the same time to have an automatic recount at the same time that would save the cost for new recount elections in disputed counts? Maybe hand and machine and or two different machines and companies in place where the same ballots are put into different machines to checkbalance each other? Just some thoughts.
M. Hallett |
melodee hallett
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Insmort
Post Number: 12
Registered: 11-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 2:52 pm: |
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I am a novice at this process and I am getting differing information from people as to what is happening in my state. I should know better when it comes to dealing with people.
I know there is a wealth of information on this site on the vendors, but has anyone come up with a concise list of vendors and the problems that has taken place with their equipment and software to present to our election clerks? Is there any company who is willing to have open source software or make it so voting officials can have access to what they need to have access to for oversite? Are we still choosing voting equipment that is the lesser of evils with no one to recommend?
M. Hallett |
melodee hallett
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Insmort
Post Number: 14
Registered: 11-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 9:51 am: |
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What I have been able to understand about how the smaller counties in our state are deciding on election equipment is they are having various vendors have a demonstration day. There seems to be a series of 6 or 7 and the first one may have been the Hart machines. I will try and get a list of who is demo-ing their equipment and where. I just hope more people who are not election officials show an interest at this level so that the public can help in the process.
Our clerk was going to narrow down to a couple of vendors, but we did have someone try out the Hart.
She had problems and without the novice on the intitial trials, the user friendliness may be overlooked. Their input can be useful to the clerks in making their decision. I really think the public could be quite helpful to our officials in the process of unforeseen roadblocks that could arise after the money has been spent.
M. Hallett |
melodee hallett
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Insmort
Post Number: 15
Registered: 11-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 5:17 pm: |
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John, Sorry, I should have gone back and read what I received from you way back. Now if I can get anyone to look at all the information. Thanks, |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 3249
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, January 20, 2006 - 8:29 am: |
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Melodee --
I'm still confused as to exactly which ES&S model we are dealing with here. Each time I start to answer, that stops me. The Optech uses different technology than the M100 and M650. Both are optical scans.
Can you clarify? Then we may be able to give you some specific talking points in easy to understand English.
Thanks!
Bev
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
TRIPLE PROTECTION FOR ELECTION 2006 - STARTING NOW:
(1) Use Freedom of Information, public records requests ("All American Paper Chase")
(2) Try Dumpster Diving for Democracy
(3) Candid America Project - Don't leave home without your camcorder
HOW TO DO IT: http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/6/6.html
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Jerry Depew
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Jdepew
Post Number: 1
Registered: 01-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 4:21 am: |
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Bev, I am about to attend an official certification "examination" of ES & S equipment in Des Moines Monday. I have posted the official notice of the meeting of the Iowa Board of Examiners of Voting Machines and Electronic Voting Systems at this website: http://iowavoters.org
It seems to me that this could be an opportunity to perform a Hursti hack on the machine. But I have no programming or security skills beyond managing my own email passwords, so I need some advice on how best to proceed at the meeting. Maybe a list of questions that I could pose would be helpful.
Meanwhile I am reading lots of posts at various places in this site to get educated. I currently have 9 windows open at BBV! Help, I'm drowning . . . . .
Reporting on Iowa at http://www.iowavoters.org
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Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 1591
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 4:55 am: |
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Hang in there. I sympathize with your plight. There's an unbelievable amount of info here, spread out on diverse threads.
The thread titles don't always relate to the info that develops later in the thread. The Advanced Search facility can help a lot. (Left side of every web page, near the top)
I wish they could hire someone just to pick out key info from the site and organize it in a more "findable" way! Maybe they'd need several people--things tend to develop rapidly here.
Hopefully someone here will get back to you shortly to respond more directly to your query. |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 3395
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 10:32 am: |
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Hi, Jerry, welcome to BBV -- but I remember you from way back. A pioneer in this movement, you were on it before it was cool..
Jerry, a public demo of a Hursti-style hack can't be done unless we've got permission from one of the officials to have a go at it. If that can be achieved, let me know. Hursti's skiing in Switzerland or something, I know he can't be available in Iowa Monday.
 Skiing in Switzerland? Or Iowa in January? Hmm...tough choice, but someone's gotta make it...
So it's out for this particular day, even if access was approved, unless someone else wants to have a crack at this. Either way, it needs permission.
Catherine's right. For now, we're going to implement a Google-style search function here. Even I can't find stuff anymore with the current search function, there's just too much information, meaning too many hits. People are used to the quirks and tricks to use with Google, so at least that won't require learning any new search skills. That will help some. That's for the short term. |
John Washburn
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Johnwashburn
Post Number: 349
Registered: 04-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, February 3, 2006 - 11:17 am: |
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Here is Jerry's report of the elections programmed while you wait in Iowa from Monday of this week.
Notice the prominent use of removeable media and programming which throws an "argument out of range error".
A Hursti-type attack is is certainly a reasonable possibility.
John Washburn
Only bad software is delayed by good testing.
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Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 3510
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, February 3, 2006 - 1:15 pm: |
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Good golly. Folks, this is an easy read, click the link. Just phone home to ES&S when in doubt, no worries.
Thanks, John and Jerry. |
melodee hallett
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Insmort
Post Number: 16
Registered: 11-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 9:15 am: |
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Bev, I am sorry I dropped the ball here and didn't answer you. I had gotten a little discouraged. But, it looks like I am going to have my county clerk's attention on Monday. The Chaffee county Republican committee asked me to come and point out some of our voting problems and our county clerk will be speaking. If you have any suggestions as to what I should say, let me know. Otherwise, I will wing it.
I don't know what scanner we have, but I can find out.
Since we were one of the counties that a recount was ordered by the Secretary of State and it changed the election, do you think I should still pursue seeing if our clerk will let someone check our Eagle system?
Thanks, Melodee Hallett |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 3644
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 10:36 am: |
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Melodee, you will be speaking, but even better, you must videotape your county clerk speaking. Do you have a camcorder at all? Does one of your friends?
If you are speaking first (and that often happens, since the public official is the "headliner") you can actually put stuff in your presentation that will cause the public official to address it.
Cite data. Cite sources. Bring printouts and hold them up. The more you source material, the more the county clerk will feel compelled to address it. VIDEOTAPE the county clerk and have someone videotape you.
That provides evidence. You may be astonished at what you get!
For example, here's a similar public meeting where activists deeply regretted ignoring our advice to videotape: In a recent meeting in California, the elections official said she didn't know anything about the AutoMark. In fact, it was a procurement meeting, she was recommending a different vendor's machine, and she revealed publicly that she hadn't even reviewed the other vendors! This kind of evidence, if caught on videotape, can make change happen.
The citizens then went back with a video camera. By the second hearing, the official had been prepped by her vendors. She then made specific claims criticizing the AutoMark. The citizens then took the video to the supplier of the AutoMark to request a rebuttal.
The purpose of the videotape is to collect evidence, which can then be used to effect change.
Here are more tips:
http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/6/15733.html
and
http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/73/15745.html
and
http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/2197/2367.html
Types of video evidence that can help effect change:
1) Evidence that your county clerk was provided with sourced, documented information. That invokes a fiduciary duty to do something, if the material is credible.
2) Evidence of what your county clerk claims the procedures are. Once you have this on video, you can either get public records with the written procedures ahead of time, or videotape the actual procedures during the election and if they deviate (usually they do!) you can use this to get changes enacted.
3) Evidence that captures and locks in the clerk's position on issues.
You can improve your chances of controlling the dialogue if you pass out a one-sheet
The county clerk is likely to use her speech to rebut things you've said. This is even more likely if you bring a one-sheet with you, which has questions and sourced, credible problems listed. If you pass that out at the beginning, you can have often an effect on the speech made by the clerk. The clerk either has to address the points or look like he/she is out of touch with the points.
What to do with the video if you get something useful
If you get a video, and if it captures some goodies, please let us know here and we will be happy to guide you further as to the strategic use of such evidence. There are many different kinds of things you can do, and we can help you "think outside the box."
Let's not worry about a Hursti-style hack demonstration of your scanner right now. He's in Finland, and that's a long shot anyway.
Do you need help on sourced material to bring?
If so, start us out by suggesting some of the things you know about already. We can help you build on that. You don't need to bring a lot of stuff, but you should bring highly credible and specific source material.
Good luck, Melodee, and you are an excellent example for citizens throughout America who are learning how to exercise election oversight. |
melodee hallett
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Insmort
Post Number: 18
Registered: 11-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 10:04 am: |
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I had a curious comment made by our county clerk last night concerning the last election. She said she still hadn't gotten a response from the company that satisfied her as to why there were problems with the voting machines. She said the machines tested out correctly. But, if I am relaying this correctly, she said the vendor had come and replaced the memory box with theirs. I truly don't think she thought anything about it and it didn't appear anyone else in the room thought anything. I did not record this presentation. This was a meeting informing a group as to the changes that will take place with new equipment. The vendors involved are Hart, ES&S, Sequioa, and Diebold.
I felt like a spoiler and was in the twilight zone. It is like there are two+ Americas living in parallel universes. This is an active GOP group and like many other Americans, oblivious as to vendor problems as the other half of the country who is aware of vendor and other voting problems.
At least they were willing to spend a little time looking at the problems and I hope it puts a bug in their ear so that I am not the only person willing to become a little more educated on voting machines and the vendor politics. |
melodee hallett
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Insmort
Post Number: 19
Registered: 11-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 10:47 am: |
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Bev, Thanks for all the information. I was just a minor speaker and would love to see change in our voting system in our county and all around the country.
I brought information to peak their interest, but to tell you the truth, I am a bit discouraged at the lack of interest and downright laziness of people when it comes to this issue. Thank goodness there are people like you and your volunteers.
I will be happy to pursue this further if I hear any interest on the people's part, but I brought the same subject up to a larger group in our area and I found little response from them. I am not going to do it alone. If no one sees the significance of functioning equipment when they will spend hours discussing fund raising dinners for candidates? I am baffled, yet, comments I got from some is that it didn't dawn on them there could be these types of problems. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 1745
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 11:05 am: |
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Melodee,
Naturally they don't realize it's an issue because there is no one informing them of the facts. The media ignores the issue. It's unreasonable to expect them to change in the absence of verifiable, sound information. That's where you come in. 
Don't expect them to change overnight, but do provide a steady drip-feed of factual information from official sources that they can confirm for themselves. Key bullet points from the recent GAO report would be useful, with the URL of a succinct 2-page summary of the report (done by someone who has posted here--was it Vern?) and the URL of the complete report.
Keeping the information non-partisan will be halpful to promoting dialogue; be informed about problems on both sides of the political spectrum so you can speak to any audience about why they should be concerned.
If you pass out copies of a one-page handout with
* easy-to-read bullet points (not lots of text)
* websites they can check up for themselves
* a list of questions for them to consider
maybe it would get them thinking. |
Vernon Reisenleiter
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Vern_reisenleiter
Post Number: 29
Registered: 12-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 12:53 pm: |
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Melodee,
You can find the GAO report in Black Box Voting Forums » Document Archive » Reports and Studies » General Accounting Office Electronic Voting Security Report. This is a link to the thread. The first post by Bev provides a link to the full report. Scroll down a bit to find my upload of a synopsis. Also note, in the next post, Catherine's take on what the GAO omitted.
The GAO noted many security and reliability problems with electronic voting systems, and documented their sources in the bibliography. Most of the items cited are relatively recent 2004/2005. These problems have a much longer history. The early chapters of Black Box Voting show incidents that date back to about 1988, if I recall.
(Message edited by Vern_Reisenleiter on February 14, 2006)
Vern Reisenleiter
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John Washburn
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Johnwashburn
Post Number: 11
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 2:00 pm: |
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Melodee:
Which clerk for which county? The memory card for systems from which vendor? Which election?
I ask because the vendor likely charged the county for the privilege of having the county tested programming removed and replaced with some unknown company-installed version of software/ballot programming.
The may actually be an invoice for this documenting the swap out AFTER the county-adminstered testing. |
melodee hallett
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Insmort
Post Number: 20
Registered: 11-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 4:53 pm: |
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John, It was the county clerk for Chaffee county. It would have been for the November election and was Eagle Optical scanners. I don't know the model #.
Thanks, Melodee |
melodee hallett
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Insmort
Post Number: 21
Registered: 11-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 5:31 pm: |
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Thanks for your input. I have heard there were some very unhappy people involved with one of the party's over the last election. So, maybe I helped them get an idea as to where to go with direction to your site.
Thanks, Melodee |
William Brandes
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Williambrandes
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 9:17 pm: |
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Why does this seem like fox in the henhouse type of stuff. This is my county/city. William
http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/06/02/22/voting.html |
William Brandes
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Williambrandes
Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 5:32 pm: |
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And, I guess I am asking some questions. Still am. What should we look for in these machines if anything? Is there a problem? |
Pat Vesely
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Pat_vesely
Post Number: 63
Registered: 02-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 6:26 pm: |
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Here's a link to the "ES&S DRE/VVPAT Technical Security Reassessment" document done by Compuware for the Ohio Secretary of State.
http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/hava/ess110405.pdf
Pay attention to pages 33 through 63. I'll try to read through it tonight and summarize what the main points are.
Pat A. Vesely ;-)
Paper ballots are the 'Currency of Democracy'. They've been helping to curb election fraud since 139 BCE!
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melodee hallett
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Insmort
Post Number: 22
Registered: 11-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 12:38 pm: |
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FYI, It looks like our county has decided to go with the Hart machines.
M. Hallett |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 1902
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 1:32 pm: |
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Keep an eye on the developments at BradBlog (whistleblower who used to work for Hart):
http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00002542.htm |
melodee hallett
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Insmort
Post Number: 23
Registered: 11-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 7:33 am: |
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thanks, melodee |
William Brandes
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Williambrandes
Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2005
Best of Black Box? 
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 4:03 pm: |
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Folks, the local BOE (Knox County, Ohio) will be interviewed on a local talk show that is INTERNET STREAMED live. That means that anyone with real knowledge can LISTEN and CALL-IN to this program and ask some really relevant questions. Note the time, beginning at 9:00am on Tuesday, April 25th. Call in to the show live - 397-5902 (Knox County) or 800-445-4212 (Out of Area). The stream will be found at this link on that day and time - http://www.knoxpages.com/kpradio/
From Ron Staats of KnoxPages.Com
http://www.knoxpages.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6645
I have booked the Director and the Board President of the Board of Elections to discuss the new voting system ... plus what's on the May 2nd ballot. There'll be on my show Tuesday April 25th (9-10am) ...
Again, as I said before, this program is streamed online and I would appreciate someone calling in if necessary to ask the real questions. I know that we recently purchased 200 machines of which I believe (at least the majority) are ES&S Ivotetronic touch-screen. I get the feeling that the BOE is being led around by chain, and, has little real knowledge of what is going on in these black boxes, nor, do I think they are ready for breakdowns. Just a primary, but ................. William |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 4064
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 4:51 pm: |
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William -- How big (population) is Knox County? Do you know if the 200 iVotronics represent all the machines, are are those just the machines for the disabled?
9 a.m. Tuesday in Knox County Ohio -- That's Eastern Daylight Time, folks, so for those of us on the Pacific Coast, 6 a.m.
Remember to make the time conversion!
* * * * *
Raw information about the iVotronic (very raw)
http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/73/15750.html
http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/73/15687.html
http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/73/19442.html
Further developed for ease of use
If you get a chance to call in, it would be helpful to the listening audience to ask the public officials questions like these:
- The ES&S absentee counting machine has a problem with counting backwards when it hits a certain number. Public records indicate it counted votes backwards in Broward County and Orange County, Florida. Memos from the state elections office there show the problem has not yet been resolved. How do you plan to deal with this issue in Knox County during the next election?
- According to recent news reports, ES&S was caught installing uncertified software in Indiana. What procedures do you use to match the software that's installed on your system with that which is approved by the state of Ohio?
- ES&S has reported that a group of investors that calls themselves "Normal Investments LLC" is one of the significant owners of ES&S. Who are the people in this "Normal Investments LLC" group and where is that entity based?*
- According to the Florida state attorney general, ES&S is being investigated on antitrust grounds for colluding to blackball an elections official. How do you feel about doing business with a company being investigated for this kind of thing?
* Listed on questionnaire submitted by ES&S to Santa Clara County during procurement process |
John Howard
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Harmonyguy
Post Number: 298
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 7:59 pm: |
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There is a web site which purports to be a public service of ES&S serving a number of counties in Ohio, including Knox County.
http://www.ohiovotereducation.com/
Click on the link for the Interactive Voter Tryout which supposedly is a simulation of the actual iVotronic voting machine used in your county.
The Tryout has races for 'Top two favorite music artists' and 'Favorite ice cream flavor' amongst other questions.
Try voting for Stevie Ray Vaughn and see what happens on the 'paper trail' (Someone else's name will appear)
Under vote (make no selection) in the race for ice cream flavour - it will decide to vote Chocolate for you.
If this is indeed a public service of ES&S, it may be a much bigger public service than they realize, since it the public a glimpse into the quality of the programming they do.
Having now decompiled the demo, it's apparent that the Chocolate default is not just a failure of programming logic, it is an intentionally set default.
HG;) |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 2090
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 11:01 pm: |
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Wow--that sure was instructive!!! Ohio Voter Education knows how to teach a thing or two, even if it wasn't what was intended.
I only voted in the "Top two favorite music artists" race and didn't cast votes for any of the other sections.
I voted for Stevie Ray Vaughan and no one else.
Just like you said, the paper trail looked--um, different. (I won't give it away here)
At the end when it showed me my ballot (in which I'd only cast a vote in the top favorite music artists' race and undervoted in all other races), it showed NO names ticked in the race for top musician, and the race for favorite ice cream flavor indicated that I had selected Chocolate.
So much for voting in Ohio.
Unbelievable. A great demonstration of the risks of electronic voting.
Do you think someone should ask the Knox County election official about this persuasive demonstration? Or should we not let them in on it? |
William Brandes
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Williambrandes
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 12:19 pm: |
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Bev. I thought that I had written an answer to your post and thanking you and others for the links to resources. Maybe it got lost in the switchover to the new format.
Anyway, Knox county is north and east by about an hour from the state capital in Columbus, Ohio. We, Mount Vernon (county seat) are about 10 minutes from the Kenyon College campus in Gambier (I'm sure you remember the fiasco there during the Fall '04 election, longest lines in the country). Now, as for the ES&S machines. About 40 of the 200 are disability configured. And, the population of Knox is around 57K.
Again, it would be great if there could be listeners AND callers really on top of all this to call in - 800-445-4212 - (toll free). You can also listen - http://www.knoxpages.com/kpradio/ - to the stream live on the net. Tomorrow, Tuesday, April 25 - 9-10am (EST), the local BOE interviewed and questioned on the primary and these new voting machines. Thanks. William |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 2164
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 12:26 pm: |
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Good luck, William! I hope lots of informed people listen and phone in to help raise these issues with the election officials. |
Hal Guentert
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Antifraud
Post Number: 30
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 2:31 pm: |
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I am concerned that every time there is are problems found with these machines the answer is that the problems will be fixed by the manufacturer soon, and that it never effects the vote tabulation even if the problem does not seem to be fully understood by the election officials.
The other thing that bothers me is that the "self audit" does not even work and that there are multiple memory cards used independently (not exact copy/backup memory). Also, why are infrared signals used to communicate to the PEB?
"Many jurisdictions use the serial port on the back of the iVotronic to extract this data for archival storage during normal post-election procedures. This data duplicates what is stored on the compact flash card (not the PEB), and some jurisdictions save only this data or only the data from the compact flash card." What good is this?
Machines that were used have been "lost" and other machine serial numbers added to the report that were not used but supposedly have the votes from the "lost" machines is unbelieveable.
This may have been covered, but here a couple of links I ran across trying to figure out how the iVotronic machines work (or don't):
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1084316008117
http://www.verifiedvoting.org/article.php?id=5165
I am concerned that if these machines are used to rig elections, we are only letting the manufacturers get better at covering up their mistakes by accepting completely unauditable voting systems, and even ignoring major problems. |
