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| 3-4-08: Will Ohio have its own 'Butch... |
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Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 7655
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? 
Votes: 5 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 7:12 am: | 
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In a stunning, and perhaps partisan, act of election administration oddness, Ohio Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner exploited a good independent study of voting machine vulnerabilities (the (EVEREST study) to install mitigations that don't actually match the report's findings. Among these "mitigations": reduction of the number of polling places, and introduction of a high-risk central count model in Cuyahoga County.
Central count systems do not count ballots at the polling places, but instead transport all ballots to a central location for counting. The transportation phase is perhaps the single riskiest phase in the entire election, especially when there is no record of the count BEFORE the ballots are transported.
Absentee voting, ballot transport, and central count systems are traditional strongholds for the Democratic party machine's election tampering, hence the raised eyebrow regarding whether there is a partisan flavor to Democrat Jennifer Brunner's unusual actions.
In another area, Brunner joins former Ohio Republican Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell in disabling an important safeguard: the posting of results at the polling place before memory cards are transported (also called cartridges, PEBs, what have you, these are electronic ballot boxes). In the Ohio locations that still electronically count ballots at the polling place, the posting of this results tape BEFORE information enters the risky transportation phase offers citizens a means to check whether the "central tabulation" (combined precinct totals) matches the precinct results before vote data was transported. It also provides a check and balance against substitution of memory cards, cartridges, PEBs. But Brunner has joined the straight-up bad decision of Blackwell by deciding there will be no posting of precinct results at the polling place.
WHAT'S THE BUTCH & HOPPY SHOW?
In New Hampshire, where polling places abound, real paper ballots are used, and most jurisdictions count by hand, in public, allowing videotaping of the process, with a fully public chain of custody, there is a second election phase which involves the riskier central count phase. New Hampshire allows any candidate to have a 100 percent hand recount, a process that was used by both Democrat and Republican candidates in the 2008 presidential primary to compare real ballots against those counted in New Hampshire's voting machine jurisdictions.
This hand recount process involves picking up ballots from over 231 towns and cities to transport them to Concord for a hand recount. Enter Butch and Hoppy.
The ballots are picked up by two clerks from the state archives building, Armand "Butch" Dubois and Peter "Hoppy" Falzone. They careen around the state in a white van followed by a lone state trooper, picking up ballot boxes and delivering them to Concord. Sometimes the boxes look -- well -- "compromised" when they arrive, and sometimes they look that way when they are picked up.
HERE'S HOPING CITIZENS WILL FOLLOW THE TRANSPORT VEHICLES IN OHIO
We learned a great deal about broken links in New Hampshire's chain of custody by following the transport van and videotaping ballot intake procedures. This is exactly what needs to be done today in Ohio -- both in Cuyahoga County, where ballots may begin galloping around town by early afternoon, and in all other counties, where due to the refusal to post precinct results at polling places, the transport phase for memory cards/cartridges/PEBs will take on much higher risk for substitutions.
Watch for:
- Transparency of the process. Is the pickup schedule and route public? Can you videotape the entire chain of custody from polling place to central count? During which points to items leave public view?
- Evasive maneuvers: Do drivers attempt to evade citizens who are following to monitor the chain of custody?
- Meetings and liasons with others. If you see this, watch carefully to see whether you spot transfer of items or information, and get the name and license plate of who they met with. Memory cards are no bigger than credit cards.
- Stops at unofficial locations or places not on the official route
- Intake procedures: Can citizens view and videotape all aspects of the check-in procedures?
These measures will be informative, and somewhat useful for monitoring ballot transportion. Inside a vehicle, items as small as memory cards could be swapped out, making transportation of these items before posting poll results very difficult to secure.
TEXAS: NUMBER TWO "WORST PLACE TO VOTE IN AMERICA"
Black Box Voting has mapped out the state of the union, election-wise, using overlays of a number of factors that indicate just how much trust the vote-counting deserves. Among the factors we examined:
- Are the votes counted in public or in secret?
- Is it even possible for anyone to check on the accuracy of the machines with a hand count?
- Is vote counting widely distributed through a generous allotment of polling places, or is power over the count centralized?
- How many votes go through the additional chain of custody complications of mail-in voting?
- Is citizen observation allowed after polls close? Are citizens allowed to observe EVERYTHING?
- Are citizens allowed to capture evidence with video, photos, and tape recordings of what goes on after polls close?
- What procedures are in place to compare machine counted votes with hand counted votes, how public are they, how extensive are they and what procedures protect against data or ballot substitution?
- Does the state follow good procedures to implement Freedom of Information principles?
BEST AND WORST
Using the above overlays, two states pop out as perfectly dreadful places to vote: The worst, PENNSYLVANIA, which fails almost every test. Next in line, TEXAS, followed by INDIANA, LOUISIANA, DELAWARE, SOUTH CAROLINA, ARKANSAS, KENTUCKY, TENNESSEE, MARYLAND, and VIRGINIA.
Best of breed: NEW HAMPSHIRE, MAINE, and WISCONSIN, followed by NORTH CAROLINA.
HISTORY OF CORRUPTION
"Gimme five (electoral) commissioners, and I’ll make them voting machines sing 'Home Sweet Home.'" Louisiana Gov. Earl Long was quoted as saying when voting machines were introduced into the state in the 1950s.
Election tampering is, after all, a crime, and even in areas with good, "clean" election procedures, we should expect to see more election tampering where there is more corruption.
Not that there isn't corruption everywhere -- there is, and you'll confirm that by entering into a news search engine -- or even Google -- the words "guilty" and [pick title: "alderman" "county clerk" "commissioner" and, if you're willing to extract out from the ordinary arrest stories, "sheriff" and "judge"]. But some areas of the nation have a long and illustrious history of corruption, spilling over into all kinds of public officials. Is there any reason to believe that where public officials have traditionally been found ethically impure, they will not help themselves to elections?
Here's a map showing some of the traditional corruption pockets in the USA. In the map below, the deeper the shadow on the state, the worse it fared on our evaluation of general election safeguards. The red, purple and orange color outlines show areas with a specific history of corruption. Regardless of whether your elections seem to have good checks and balances, these areas will require special citizen diligence to monitor elections:
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Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 4712
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 7:50 am: |
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Great article.
I have a question about interpreting the map. When a state is outlined in a certain color, does that imply that the whole state has the color-related corruption problem, or that just the outer boundaries of the state have those issues? (For example, are the perimeter/boundary areas of Texas, Oklahoma, Alaska, Florida, Nevada, Ohio, PA, New Mexico and Arizona the worst? Ditto for all the rural corruption pockets--from the map, most of them appear to be in state border or coastline areas.
Where there are coasts such as Alaska, FL, LA and TX I can understand why coastal resources would be at a premium. It's more difficult to understand why corruption would be concentrated so heavily in state borders.
Would this have to do with greater ease of evading state law enforcement officers, for example?
Would cross-state-border crime it make it more complex for national law enforcement such as the FBI to investigate or prosecute? (Or, is the FBI or US Attorney system viewed as being "manageable" so therefore not a big risk?)
There seems to be some kind of "corruption strategy" at work here, if I am reading the map correctly. In some states, election legislation or "management" seems to be part of the apparent "strategy".
It is interesting to see the confluence in some states of poor election laws and corruption pockets. Thanks for putting this together. |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 7659
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 8:21 am: |
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quote: When a state is outlined in a certain color, does that imply that the whole state has the color-related corruption problem, or that just the outer boundaries of the state have those issues?
Whole state is afflicted in most cases, because when pockets of organized crime develop one of the first things they do is seek influence in the town, county and state government levels. Thus, in Nevada where Las Vegas has a history of corruption, the problem tends to manifest itself also in state government levels. And in New Hampshire, where the pockets of organized crime are in Nashua and Manchester, they will tend to leak up to Concord in order to seek influence as a protective measure.
The outline around the state indicates the whole state should be considered afflicted, with some parts of the state more problematic than others.
quote:Would cross-state-border crime it make it more complex for national law enforcement such as the FBI to investigate or prosecute? (Or, is the FBI or US Attorney system viewed as being "manageable" so therefore not a big risk?)
The FBI has traditionally been the strongest prosecutor of organized crime, but this is still sometimes problematic. Some FBI agents recently took the fifth in mob-related testimony in Boston, and particularly for election-related crime the FBI may not necessarily be helpful.
quote: In some states, election legislation or "management" seems to be part of the apparent "strategy".
That's always part of the strategy. Early mob strategies always included gaining influence (through blackmail or cash) among cops and certain reporters. As crime cartels became more sophisticated, they began focusing also on helping to maneuver favored candidates into office. |
Joel Morine
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Erased
Post Number: 114
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 8:33 am: |
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I'm also wondering some.
Seems colored border means statewide, judging from Nev, Ari, NMex histories & local color added to statewide color in Fla & Louisiana.
If so, then what is meant by filling in lower half of Calif with same color as borders ... thorough corruption of local govts in southern Cal in addition to statewide govt?
& what do the partial purple lines mean on western half of Virg-NorCarol border & southern portion of Missouri-Illinios? If it means part of state has bigger rural corruption problem than other part, is it referring to both states in both cases?
Whatever clarifying answers are to these questions,
this is a valuable tool for visualizing extent of locales where corruption is longterm tradition...
endemic and pervasive rather than incidental cases of bribery.
I wonder at Montana, Colorado & Michigan not making the list w/ light-red (orange?) borders; but maybe they've improved in recent decades that I'm less familiar with. |
Joel Morine
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Erased
Post Number: 115
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 8:42 am: |
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Oops, I was typing while you were answering.
For those who want a closer look re: org.crime & politics -- & FBI role in the picture...
John Edgar Hoover; an inquiry into the life and times of John Edgar Hoover, and his relationship to the continuing partnership of crime, business, and politics, Hank Messick.
Secret File, Hank Messick. NY: GPPutnam’s Sons, 1969.
Deep Politics and the Death of JFK, Peter Dale Scott. UnivCalifPress,1993.
Conflict of Interest in the Eisenhower Administration, David A Frier. Ames,IA: Iowa State UnivPress,1969.
The Facts About Nixon: An Unauthorized Biography, William Costello. NY: Viking Press, 1960. |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 7663
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 9:18 am: |
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Hi, Joel. Well I had Colorado on the list, and Michigan, not as familiar with Montana as I should be. Then I dropped Colo. and Mich. off because for those on the list, I can pretty much cite off the top of my head specific examples of felony indictments, and thought gee, if someone, radio host whatever, asks me for the specific dirt on Colorado or Michigan I will have to go look it up. Time is limited right now, so I didn't expand the map with further research, though I hope to do so before November. In general, if my existing research has already turned up not only "reputation" but SPECIFIC NEWS ARTICLES citing arrests, the state made the map.
I'm sure it could be broadened. GREAT cites of books and references -- thanks very much!
Former FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover was a real bastard -- he was legendary for the tactic of keeping a secret blackmail dossier on everyone who holds significant public office, and this is very likely why he stayed in office permanently (for 50 years, vacating the office by his death).
I have heard from various sources that Hoover's "get dirt on 'em" power tactics are now widely used by both major political parties, becoming part of the fabric of our government.
I worked for a short time for the late legendary investigative report Jack Anderson (not as an investigative reporter, but doing marketing writing and editing.) Jack was one of the people who finally broke J. Edgar Hoover's reputation down, and he told me he did it partly by dumpster diving J. Edgar himself. In fact, that's where I got the idea to dumpster dive Diebold with Kathleen Wynne back in 2004.
Jack Anderson also had a kick-ass report on the assassination of JFK, which he tied to both Castro and some mob bosses who felt double-crossed when RFK was allowed to go after them, despite their opinion that they had helped JFK get into office.
One controversy with J. Edgar Hoover all along was that he refused to go after the mob. He reportedly had a gentleman's agreement (which might better be termed a rogue's agreement) to stay clear of tough-minded mob investigations.
Hoover had his own skeletons in the closet. He went after civil rights leaders like Martin Luther King with a particular vengeance, but there are indications that Hoover himself was one-eighth black. There was perhaps more definitive proof of that at one time; unfortunately, the only census records containing specific delineations of biracial individuals, the 1990 census which indicates whether people were quadroons, octaroons, etc., were burned up in a fire. Interestingly, that was during a time period when pre-FBI Hoover, a young and ambitious man, worked in the building that was the sole repository of those records, reportedly often staying after hours. But then again, there were a LOT of people who agonized over the unique and detailed racial identities contained in that census.
After that fire, census records were finally copied and most remaining and subsequent records were distributed to more than one location, but for anyone investigating genealogy, you'll find a big hole with that one census. |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 7665
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 9:29 am: |
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Breakdown of the safeguards has already started in Cuyahoga County, OH: See this thread -
http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/73/71903.html |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 7668
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 11:31 am: |
|
Here are the directives for midday ballot pickup, from the Ohio secretary of state Web site: http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/ElectionsVoter/OhioElections.aspx?Section=3427
2008-33: Mid-Day Pickups on Election Day
DIRECTIVE 2008-33
March 3, 2008
To: County Boards of Elections Conducting Mid-Day Pickups on Election Day, March 4, 2008, as Authorized by Am S.B. No. 286
Re: Requirements for Midday Collection and Delivery of Voted Ballots to a Board of Elections for Central Tallying or Counting of Optical Scan Ballots
On February 27, 2008, Governor Strickland signed Am. S. B. No. 286 into law. The new law provides for tabulation of optical scan ballots at a central location ("central count optical scan") under certain circumstances.(1) The law also authorized Boards that have opted for central count optical scan to "arrange to have voted ballots collected and delivered to the office of the board of elections at any time during midday" ("midday pickup").
The new law requires the secretary of state, by directive, to provide requirements for the following regarding midday pickup.
Persons to serve as designated agents;
The manner of handling ballots during collection and delivery;
Maintenance of ballot boxes for each precinct;
Secure delivery of the voted ballots to the board of elections; and
Ballot reconciliations with the poll book or poll lists that are transported to and from a polling location.
This Directive is issued in satisfaction of that statutory mandate, which is set forth in R.C 3505.25(F), as amended.
Definitions
As used in this Directive, the following definitions apply:
"Designated Agent" means a person who is qualified and/or appointed to be a judge of elections, including law enforcement officers or employees or agents of the board of elections, who has taken an oath that he or she will directly, promptly, and securely collect voted ballots from polling places and deliver them to the Director and Deputy Director at the board of elections location at which ballots will be centrally tabulated or counted. Designated agents shall perform their duties in teams of two persons who are members of different political parties
"Midday" means the period beginning at noon and ending at three p.m. on the day of the election.
"Ballot box" means the container used to hold voted regular and provisional ballots and that shall store the ballots prior to their reconciliation at the polling place and transport to the board of elections for central tabulation.
"Drivers" means two designated agents assigned to drive and secure ballots from the time of loading until the time of unloading ballot boxes at the board of elections location at which ballots will be centrally tabulated or counted.
"Ballot Collectors" means designated agents assigned to accompany the drivers and complete the midday collection at each assigned polling location.
"Midday ballot collection certification form" means a form prescribed by the secretary of state and includes a form prescribed by the board of elections for the midday collection of ballots that utilizes the procedures contained in this directive.
"Cargo Van" means a vehicle used to transport ballot boxes from the voting locations on Election Day to the board of elections location at which ballots will be centrally tabulated or counted.
"Unavoidable necessity" means illness, death of a family member, or other incapacitation that would prevent the judge from observing or assisting in the midday ballot reconciliation and collection of voted ballots.
Oath of Designated Agents
Individuals who are serving as designated agents shall take an oath as follows:
"I, [name] solemnly swear that I will uphold the laws and Constitution of Ohio, and will directly, promptly, and securely collect all voted ballots entrusted to me and deliver them to the board of elections."
Manner of Handling Ballots During Collection; Maintenance of Ballot Boxes for Each Precinct; Delivery and Secure Delivery of Voted Ballots to the Board of Elections; and Ballot Reconciliations with the Poll Book or Poll Lists that are Transported To and From a Polling Location
The Board of Elections shall develop in advance of Election Day a prescribed route for all Designated Drivers to follow in accomplishing the midday collection of ballots by a team of designated agents assigned to a cargo van.
Each ballot box for which the midday of collection of ballots has been determined or designated by the board of elections and its seal shall each bear a number that corresponds to a recorded key or list of such numbers that the board of elections maintains. The number on such container and its seal shall be verified and recorded on the key or list when the voted ballots are delivered as a result of midday collection of voted ballots to the board of elections.
Designated agents shall not at any time possess food or drink in the presence of ballots.
Ballots shall not be released by precinct election officials to designated agents until official identification that has been issued to the designated agents by the board of elections is presented.
Designated agents who are also drivers shall remain in the vehicle used to transport ballots during the entire period that ballots are in cargo vans, that is, from the beginning of the assigned route until the assigned pickup route is completed and ballots are delivered to the board of elections at its central count tabulating location.
Designated agents shall follow only the route prescribed and assigned by the board of elections and shall deliver ballots to the board of elections at its central count tabulating location by following the assigned, prescribed route with no extra stops unless in case of health emergency of one of the designated agents assigned to the cargo van, in which case, the board of elections’ Director or Deputy Director shall be notified immediately, and all designated agents assigned to the cargo van in question shall explicitly follow the instructions of the Director and Deputy Director of the board of elections.
Upon arrival at each precinct scheduled for midday pickup, the designated agents who are ballot collectors shall notify judges at the precinct of their arrival and produce proper board of elections identification.
The presiding judge of the precinct shall then announce, by proclamation, the midday collection of ballots within the precinct.
Designated agents who are ballot collectors shall replace the ballot box used for the ballots voted prior to the proclamation of midday collection of ballots with a new ballot box for ballots voted after the proclamation of the midday collection of ballots, to enable voting to continue without significant interruption.
Ballot collectors shall tally the number of signatures that have been recorded in the alphabetical poll book, and write that number of signatures on a midday ballot collection certification form.
Ballot collectors shall take the ballot box used for the ballots voted prior to the proclamation of midday collection of ballots to an empty table at the precinct polling location before proceeding to open the ballot box or tally or count the number of non-spoiled regular ballots voted prior to the proclamation of the midday collection of ballots.
Before opening the ballot box used for the ballots voted prior to the proclamation of midday collection of ballots, the designated agents who are ballot collectors shall record on the midday ballot collection certification form the original seal number of the ballot box used for the ballots voted prior to the proclamation of midday collection of ballots.
From the time of opening of the ballot box used for the ballots voted prior to the proclamation of midday collection of ballots, during the tallying of the number of ballots in the ballot box and the comparison of that number with the number of signatures that have been recorded in the alphabetical poll book, until reconciliation of the two tallies is recorded and/or any discrepancies explained by precinct judges, no judge or designated agent shall leave ballots for the precinct unattended nor depart from the polling location, except in case of unavoidable necessity. At no time shall more than one half of the judges of elections conducting a midday ballot reconciliation be members of the same political party.
Designated agents who are ballot collectors shall open the ballot box used for the ballots voted prior to the proclamation of midday collection of ballots and place all the provisional ballot envelopes in the ballot box used for the ballots voted after the proclamation of midday collection of ballots.
Spoiled ballots shall be separately retained by the presiding judge for transport to the board of elections after the close of the polls.
Designated agents who are ballot collectors shall tally the number of voted, non-spoiled, regular ballots that are in the ballot box used for the ballots voted prior to the proclamation of midday collection of ballots and record the number reached in the tally on the midday ballot collection certification form.
If the number of ballots tallied from the ballot box used for the ballots voted prior to the proclamation of midday collection of ballots exceeds the number of signatures tallied from the poll book, the presiding judge shall explain the discrepancy on the bottom of the midday ballot collection certification form and shall enter in the poll book or poll list an explanation of that discrepancy. If the remaining judges agree with the explanation, they shall subscribe their signatures on the form and in the poll book or poll list along with the explanation. Any judge with a different explanation shall enter that explanation on the form and in the poll book or poll list and subscribe the judge's signature with that explanation.
After recording the required information, designated agents who are ballot collectors shall:
Sign the midday ballot collection certification form;
Return voted ballots (except provisional and spoiled ballots) to the ballot box used for the ballots voted prior to the proclamation of midday collection of ballots;
Re-seal the ballot box used for the ballots voted prior to the proclamation of midday collection of ballots with tamper tape and record the seal number on the midday ballot collection certification form; and
Deliver the voted ballots in the ballot box, along with the midday ballot collection certification form to the cargo van and turn over custody of them to the designated agents who are drivers.
Designated agents who are drivers each shall also record and/or initial on the certification form(s) the ballot box seal number.
All designated agents assigned to a cargo van shall proceed to the next polling location, if any, and repeat the above prescribed processes until their route is complete.
Designated agents who are drivers shall immediately, upon completion of their route and with all designated agents present who are assigned to a cargo van, transport all voted ballots to the board of elections location where the ballots are to be centrally tallied or counted and shall turn over custody of all collected ballots to the Director and/or Deputy Director of the board of elections.
In case of road closure or other emergency, one designated agent shall contact the director or deputy director of the board of elections or his or her designated agent(s) for direction or instruction as to an alternate route to be followed in collecting or delivering the ballots voted prior to the proclamation of midday pickup.
Sincerely,
Jennifer Brunner
Am. S.B. No. 286 authorizes central counting of optical scan ballots in cases where a board of elections voted prior to February 1, 2008, to tabulate at a central location the unofficial results of optical scan ballots voted in a precinct polling place at the March 4, 2008, primary election. |
From the Mailbag
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Mailbag
Post Number: 217
Registered: 10-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 11:34 am: |
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The following came to me by e-mail (shades of New Hampshire!):
"When I voted today at Lakewood precinct 1-O, my completed ballot went into a cardboard box with a big hole in the top. (not a metal box with a lock on it like we had with the punch card system)
Then an elections worker told me that around noon, Board of Elections staff would be coming to pick up the cardboard boxes that are full so they can begin the count.
So anyone in that vehicle with a black pen and the ability to open a cardboard box and/or fit their hand into the large hole can change or invalidate my ballot if they so choose.
Am I missing a piece of the puzzle here, or is this really the system in place?" |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 2101
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 3 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 1:11 pm: |
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My Russel Novkov moment:
Mid-day ballot pickup is a terrible idea.
==========================================
http://kurtspeak.blogspot.com
(some relevant to subjects here, most not)
|
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 7670
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 1:31 pm: |
|
Thank you for honoring one of our steady of exceptionally taciturn participants, Kurt.
Got a chuckle out of your post, and you're right, as you often are. Thought of you when I gave Pennsylvania the ultimate failing grade. Might be different if we had about 67 clones of you there. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 2102
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 2:28 pm: |
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Bev,
Most of my colleagues (at the level I served) are very decent folks, mired in a no-win legislative environment, with only ministerial powers (no policy making), answering to County Commissioners, many of whom do not educate themselves adequately on election management issues.
==========================================
http://kurtspeak.blogspot.com
(some relevant to subjects here, most not)
|
christine c reid
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ctwatcher
Post Number: 324
Registered: 12-2007
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 3:09 pm: |
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Kurt, in states where in your opinion decent legislation has been created, do you have any info on how it happened? e.g. What were the conditions that led to it? Did states use consultants, was there some commitment by legislators to reach a certain level of mastery of the thing they were legislating, were legislators coming from careers that made them tech savvy, was there a better developed dialogue between citizens in the know and legislators who knew they didn't know or what?
Anyone else with observations, would find this of interest.
In a society as complex as ours where the devil indeed lies in the details in so many areas, we must have good information sharing and "reconciling" processes, and a system built to maximize benefit from varied professional skills and experiences - plus (jargon - bear with me) the abiility to continuously learn -- to keep on making the legislation better and more responsive to the unfolding technically changing environment.
Yes, and all that assumes a genuine interest in making good and fair laws, and in balancing interests.
(...How many more days till Christmas??) |
Tom Courbat
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Leftisbest
Post Number: 87
Registered: 6-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 4:27 pm: |
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Hey, so what's Riverside, CA now, chopped liver? I mean, we used to be rated second worst place to vote in the U.S. The improvements have been minimal - after maximum effort. We still get booted out of anyplace meaningful.
Hey, we're fighting for our old standing here - can't you at least put us in the top 10 worst?
 |
Del Argenti
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Truthnet
Post Number: 94
Registered: 1-2007
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 5:23 pm: |
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GOP questions Cuyahoga County ballot pickups
The Ohio Republican Party is complaining that “the integrity of the election in Cuyahoga County has been put in question” because Republicans were not involved in the midday pickup of some paper ballots.
A state law enacted recently to allow the midday pickup, sought as a way to help speed up the processing of ballots, required that bipartisan teams be used to collect ballots at polling locations for delivery to a central location for counting.
But Ohio GOP field staff in Cuyahoga County reported that ballots are being picked up, transported and delivered exclusively by Democrats, the Republicans said in a news release. According to the statement, two self-identified Democrats were in a van carrying ballots from the McKinley Elementary School in Lakewood to the central location. There were no Republicans with these ballots in transit, the party said.
“It's questionable enough that ballots are being put in boxes and placed in cars to drive around the county, but to remove bipartisan oversight of the ballots while being collected and in transport threatens the integrity of the system,” Ohio Republican Party Deputy Chairman Kevin DeWine said in a statement.
http://blog.dispatch.com/primary/2008/03/gop_questions_cuyahoga_county.shtml |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 4719
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 5:42 pm: |
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Del,
It's good to see that that someone is copping on that the lack of bipartisan oversight during ballot transport is an issue. |
Len Rideout
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Rideout
Post Number: 16
Registered: 6-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 5:51 pm: |
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CNN is reporting Ohio voting irregularities tonight. What else is new? Of course, the more attention irregularities get, hopefully the better the country will be in the long run (once we fix how we elect our leaders). |
Del Argenti
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Truthnet
Post Number: 95
Registered: 1-2007
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 6:37 pm: |
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That wasn't the only issue - DeWine also recognized the questionability of ballots being put in boxes and placed in cars to drive around the county.
He should be contacted for a BBV expose. |
christine c reid
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ctwatcher
Post Number: 327
Registered: 12-2007
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 8:45 pm: |
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Wonder if the D and R thing should apply in primaries?
The law may specify D and R transporters (I do think I read that this afternoon). I have no problem with the GOP objections -- fair's fair, but I also can't help noticing that the goal of the law is to have "adversarial oversight", and in this case, I wonder if a D and an R really capture the strongest counterbalancing adversarial relationships.
Maybe the Dems have a reason to do the dirty on GOP ballots in the primary or vice versa (to get a candidate they want to run against?), but it sure seems like the GOP nomination is pretty sewn up. The D versus D may be the most contentious dynamic in the race.
It would be interesting to know if the two D's were 1 from HRC's camp and 1 from Obama's. |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 7672
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 9:24 pm: |
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Tom Courbat -- Riverside is still riding high on the rotten place to vote ruler. This chart was state by state, but as you look at California, you'll see that Riverside is smack in the middle of a large corruption pocket. |
Michael Polsinelli
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Jankdc
Post Number: 31
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 9:37 pm: |
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My wife and I videotaped parts of the pickups for today in Cuyahoga county. During the midday pickup, a cargo van with two people in it came to the polling center, with a car and another two people in it. the pair in the car went into the polling area, switched ballot boxes. counted the ballots, resealed the boxes (with a very small piece of tape supposedly with numbers on it). They then brought that box to the van that was waiting, then returned to polling place to do the same with another precinct. Neither the drivers nor the couple that counted the number of ballots gave me their names (nor did I think to ask of party affiliation).
We were unable to follow the midday van back to the board of election's warehouse.
After the polls closed, we happened to choose a polling place that was a central drop off point. Meaning, that pairs from other precincts came and dropped off ballot boxes as well as red and blue bags (which were labeled supplies for democratic and republican races, but that a kid that was unloading them later said that they were electronic machines).
In cuyahoga county, Brunner recently forced a change to optical scan ballots that are centrally tabulated downtown. It is an ES&S system. They use an electronic system for people with disabilities and I am unsure how it works.
It was cold with freezing rain tonight, the roads were bad. While most of the cars came with pairs in them with the ballots and equipment, one pair came in separate vehicles. One older man with the ballot box and supply bag in the front seat of his truck with the second of the pair following in the care behind him. The poll worker pairs brought their boxes and bags into the building and after a while exited and left. One of the drivers then brought a bag and box out into one of the two vans that were parked.
We were able to follow the two vans easily, they did not do any evasive maneuvers (it was drive 20mph in a 35mph zone kind of weather). When we got to the warehouse there were a line of vans waiting to drop off. About 50 teenage boys were hustling to separate the boxes and bags onto different carts and take them into the building.
A friend was able to get into the building. She said that there were ES&S people everywhere (they had a black shirt, khaki pants uniform). She said that they were running the tabulators with elections people moving ballot boxes to and from the tabulators.
I do know that in the event of any recount, the policy for 10% hand count is that for each county a municipality is chosen at random. From there the first precinct is automatically selected (1A). If the municipality is chosen again, the next precinct in line is then chosen (1B I believe). There is no real randomness to a recount. It also means that a municipality such as Cleveland has the same chance as being chosen as a small suburb such as Lyndhurst.
My opinion of what I saw. While there can be improvements in the openness of some of the polling locations for citizens witnesses, and that there can be improvements in following policy and improving policy. We did not have a Butch and Hoppy type collection.
My concerns are truthfully with ES&S and Brunner's centralization of the counting process. |
christine c reid
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ctwatcher
Post Number: 330
Registered: 12-2007
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 9:48 pm: |
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Thanks, Michael, for the great report. A most interesting read. |
Michael Polsinelli
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Jankdc
Post Number: 32
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 9:50 pm: |
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Ok,
so the more that I think about it, the cardboard ballot boxes were "sealed" with tiny little blue bandaid like strips. One at where the boxes can be opened and then two over the top slit where the ballots are put into (I think I could have gotten a hand in there). I'll try to post a video of it by this weekend. |
Bev Harris
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 7682
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 - 11:14 pm: |
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Michael, THANK YOU FOR GETTING VIDEO!!! If you have any trouble posting it, mail a copy of the unedited version to me and I'll get highlights up. It sounds like (I hope) the blue tape you saw was tamper evident tape, which leaves residue if removed. Will be able to tell better with video. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 1991
Registered: 1-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2008 - 5:01 am: |
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So, do people once again think that this chain of custody amounts to lipstick on a pig? It sure sounds that way to me. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 1996
Registered: 1-2005
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 2 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2008 - 5:23 am: |
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I think a lot of what goes wrong in an election is people making their best guess at what can make a ridiculously bad situation (under-funded, under-thougt-out in advance, etc) a little better, in combination with a "We're all trustworthy, aren't we? Cutting these corners because we don't have the resources can't be that bad, can it?". |
christine c reid
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ctwatcher
Post Number: 331
Registered: 12-2007
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2008 - 7:35 am: |
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You're touching on an interesting point, Brad, and that is the intangible of "trust".
Trustworthy + competent
Trustworthy + not competent or insightful
Not trustworthy + adept
Not trustworthy + incompetent
Which does an election administrator want, and why? |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 1997
Registered: 1-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, March 6, 2008 - 5:02 am: |
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But not of those combinations do you any good (even the best one) if they have inadequate resources and protocols (or if their management won't use anything but inadequate resources or protocols) in the first place. This is the problem with everything about elections, it isn't a pyramid, it's a straight vertical stack with the accurate vote count on the top, knock out any one element, and the whole vertical edifice (including any confidence in the vote count) hits the ground. |
Joel Morine
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Erased
Post Number: 116
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, March 6, 2008 - 5:06 am: |
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Using Christine's list, #'d 1 to 4 from top to bottom...
where malfeasance is intent:
many govt & biz systems seem to be designed w/ a belief that --
#3 is most effective if limited to a few most useful action-level nodes while there is a lot of #1 & #2 in a majority of other such nodes.
...which is especially difficult to differentiate from normal natural distributions that occur w/o malfeasant intent...
Exposures tend to come where malfeasant intent overreaches # of #3 nodes, thus inviting -- by normal natural distribution -- a sufficient inadvertent # of #4 nodes for stink to show. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 2000
Registered: 1-2005
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, March 7, 2008 - 4:40 am: |
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There is abundant coverage for any and all of this using the "I'm just a dumb schmuck trying to do this job without resources" defense. The obvious inference from the outside observer is that nobody but a dumb schmuck would have taken or remained in the job if the resources weren't there, but somebody's going to need that job enough to take it. |
Joel Morine
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Erased
Post Number: 134
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 5:59 am: |
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I feel I should be toasting 2000 posts here Brant.
All the moreso considering how much goes into so many of yours.
Cheers!
Re: some of what's often beneath 'lack of resources' cover story...
People semi-'trapped' in such situations by the many incentives that limit job mobility...
(looks bad on resume to move too much,
(don't find out what's not what it seems abt next job until you are in it,
(large % of other jobs that have similar unrealities & built-in dysfunctions,
(entry level jobs in most systems max discomforts,
(known problems preferable to unknown,
(de jure & de facto seniority perqs,
(any # of others
...have strong emotional incentives to resent outsiders criticizing their performance in hemmed-in jobs where:
1) mgmt de facto rewards opposites of purported job
(as job-doers learn watching who gets rewarded & promoted & punished)
while
2) official paper rules define job as outsiders expect it should be done,
leaving
3) all doers who bug mgmt in any (real, bigoted, or imagined) way are open to paper-lynching at any time for doing
what mgmt implicitly (& oft semi-explicitly via code adages) trains doers to do..,that conflicts w/ paper process definitns
while
4) insufficient funds mandated by legislators who also over-proscribe doers' doings to inflexibly mandate inapt doings
5) all combine to put doers in steady flow of false situations
6) doing daily misdoings as directed knowing who will wear incoming eggs, pies, tomatoes on face
7) while teflon directors (who scripted doers' doings) very publicly & piously
do ('overworked,underpaid') or don't ('beats me, that’s not how I trained ‘em') try to cover (voiceless) doers butts
8) in ways none of which feel good to doers semi-trapped in Teflon dirs & politicns lawful BS.
All of which invites strong psyche self-deception systems, us/them mentalities, distrust of outsiders
(especially reformers-critics, even moreso when such are right abt differences between dejure-defacto system ops)
& a tendency (many resist) to feel hostile & superior to folk who get run over trying to
get selves or others un-trapped, blow whistles, stand up to or speak out about implicit traps
or do any # of things that sound sensible & helpful to Outside Observers,
who however attentive herenow will likely be gone,fewer,media-erased tomorrow
& are how easily ignored in any case by malfeasant systems' built-in ignore-ance mechanisms,
at which pts anonymous doers will again be on their own,
depending on mgmt reference to escape to higher ground elsewhere -- or mgmt smiles to comfortably stay.
Often the most galling thing in such misdirected job spots is
watching how easy & protected things are for those who misdo job
or trap you into misdoing for sake of their future denials
& knowing how false & foolish you'll sound describing yr job's reality to folk safely comfy evading such systems.
As per Brant's 2nd sentence, there is little cause in such situations,
which may be more common than exceptional in key public & private US institutions,
to expect Outside Observers to understand or empathize w/ doers thus semi-trapped
in self-disguising self-denying implicitly manipulated entrenched dysmgmt systems
that are typically far more subtle & complex than above skeletal semi-speculative approximations
based on personal witness, listening & experiences in several benign-purposed US institutional contexts
that do not attract bigbux bigtime expert dysmgmt manipulators that govt $$$ do. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 4760
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 8:28 am: |
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Brant & Joel, thanks for the virtuosic description of Reality as it exists in many places. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 4761
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 8:35 am: |
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Joel, your detailed description makes me think how doubly and triply valuable are those individuals who are trying to improve the local systems where they live. Individuals who have a commitment to a place and are in it for the long haul.
I do empathize with the workers trapped in dysfunctional systems. It is widespread, and not just in public institutions. I bet small and large companies often have the same twisted dynamics.
For any folks out there who are interested in very different approaches to organization (whether in a business, small gov't office, family, etc.) you might enjoy Ricardo Semler's 2 very interesting books (Maverick and The 7-Day Weekend--I suggest they be read in that order.) Real democracy in action. |
Joel Morine
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Erased
Post Number: 138
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 10:18 am: |
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Thx Catherine,
Believe I'll do that.
Empathy is indeed in order.
As is what is happening on this site,
refreshing the tradition in vogue during height of CivilRights & anti-war agitations,
Witnessing -- as in "The Whole World is Watching" chant at Chicago '68 police riot.
Hopefully the "Front Lines" threads will earn even more use than they are getting...
or if additional avenues of follow-up supporting insiders speaking out cld be developed... |
christine c reid
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ctwatcher
Post Number: 429
Registered: 12-2007
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 11:51 am: |
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Joel Morine said:
or if additional avenues of follow-up supporting insiders speaking out cld be developed...
Joel, any ideas what that would look like? |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 2010
Registered: 1-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 3:41 am: |
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Whistleblower support from voting integrity groups. The NAAVP (National Association for the Advancement of Voting People) ? |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 4780
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 5:33 am: |
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Whistleblower support at a national level would have to be strengthened considerably.
Probably also at the state level. |
Joel Morine
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Erased
Post Number: 140
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 9:39 am: |
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Hasn't whistleblower legislation as written w/ fanfare at Fed level actually been disincentive?
Putting rewards into situation actually reduced perceived credibility of whistleblowers --
who are now susceptible of being regarded as motivated by potential reward, &
made whistle blowers who couldn't win their point vulnerable to accusations of fraud to collect reward...
whereas before it was pretty clear anyone who risked job to blow whistle had patriot motivations.
Protections written into CivilRights laws to protect folk who've filed harassment or discrimination suits from followup harrassment or firing seems to have been more effective?
But this is my one visceral unsystematic impression.
And does this seem to be stronger in cases of sexual discrimination than racia?
If so, is that because strength of public opinion re: gender discrimination is judged more significant than public opinion re: racial discrimination?
In other words, public opinion is the leverage.
I think anyone speaking out in the sort of situation I described at length above needs to do so with a group of colleagues...which is much easier said than done.
I have a lot more experience witnessing such efforts not working than working, which leaves me short on recommendations.
Needs, yes; means, ...???
A lot of issues re: changing spelling & meaning of our current JustUs System,
are akin to old physics image:
One could move the world using leverage of well-placed fulcrum,
if one had firm ground to stand on to do so. |
Joel Morine
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Erased
Post Number: 141
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 9:49 am: |
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Since election law rewrites will be done by legislators chosen by current systems...?
& current systems have proven excellent at ignoring public opinion,
while sustaining flattering pretense of bending to public opinion's 'pressure',
w/ self-appointed 'mainstream' media the self-appointed 'voice' of 'public opinion',
predominantly owned by...
Where does one plant one's feet to push another direction? |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 4782
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 2:35 pm: |
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quote:Hasn't whistleblower legislation as written w/ fanfare at Fed level actually been disincentive?
Putting rewards into situation actually reduced perceived credibility of whistleblowers --
I am not aware of the reward side. My concerns were more that the protection in the current legislation is inadequate. Whistleblowers are routinely hounded out of their jobs, sidelined, relieved of responsibilities. . .
Check out Bunny (Bunnatine?) Greenhouse, for example. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 4783
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 2:39 pm: |
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quote:Where does one plant one's feet to push another direction?
Good question. Some Representatives are better than others. It would be great if some would speak more candidly about this. (Maybe Independent Bernie Sanders in VT? There was an amazing article about legislative initiatives he was involved in, and how they were re-written in Committee.) |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 2013
Registered: 1-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 3:39 am: |
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The biggest current disincentive to whistleblower's (federally) is that the Bush administration is cutting their feet out from under them by ignoring and dismissing their cases.
It's just like their "we'll do nothing about discrimination directed at minority voters" tactic. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 4786
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 4:38 am: |
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I agree. Without consistent, impartial enforcement the laws provide just a figleaf of protection or worse. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 2017
Registered: 1-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 11:30 am: |
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The current whistleblower's handling office is now just bait to draw in would-be whistleblowers. |
christine c reid
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ctwatcher
Post Number: 452
Registered: 12-2007
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 8:57 pm: |
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In CT, I listened to testimony from the state police re: whistleblowers who were turning in their fellow crooked cops. One man had spent $10K on lawyer retention fees, was being harassed at work, and -- when he went to the AG, realized the AG is the attorney of record for the head honchose of the state police. Our GAE committee is now looking to propose legislation that would create some kind of independent body to whom whistleblowers can turn.
Fast forward to election whistleblowers - let's suppose they were insiders (highly unlikely, given Kurt's description of election officials' "keep it under wraps" cultural default. In CT, the AG is.....the attorney of record for the SOTS.
Oh-KAY. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 2018
Registered: 1-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 3:17 am: |
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Yep, whistleblowing facilities in our country are basically mixers for the foxes and the chickens, thrown by the foxes. |
Joel Morine
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Erased
Post Number: 143
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 6:29 am: |
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I listened to a conversation a few years ago among a group of PD sitting over coffee at next table from mine...very freindly sensible group of folk I'd sat near and talked w/ several times.
Somehow they got on the subject of the Serpico movie.
Everyone who spoke was appalled at what the officer whose tale the movie told had done. A few were silent for the duration of the conversation.
If anybody felt any honest cop would be glad to have someone expose what 'Serpico' exposed, thereby relieving all newbies form future 'loyalty' tests of sustaining & collecting from police protected drug dealing rings, they weren't ready to say so aloud around that table.
Doesn't mean everyone there liked it by any means. Most of the teachers I worked with my last years teaching hated a list of changes they were watching the district pressure folk into making -- using extremely unprofessional methods that were very effective in keeping people from speaking out, except in select groups of 2 or 3 folk whom they knew would agree with them. Quite a few spoke out of both sides of their mouth, depending on who was listening.
You won't find 'hard' evidence of this kind of thing. What statistics would it ever show in. A lot of the folk who do it deny they do it, some just to others, some to themselves, & then are all the more eager to bury & falsify those who do speak up where they resent their own fear of doing so. Sights of resulting blatant self-contradictions can be amazing; but most folk trapped in their logistically apt prudence are not applauding others' whistles, they've already made an opposite commitment they aren't happy about. The more unhappy, the longer the habit of prudent commitment to unreality, the less likely they are to see a whistleblower as a positive opportunity to clean up the group's collective act.
US mgmt systems are riddled (both senses apt in this context) w/ little loyalty-to-unreality tests that in many cases are more significant steps to promotion than competence, so much so that competence too effectively directed to purported purposes -- by those who don't "get" hidden agendas -- is its own liability, tho useful for sake of organization's credibility where it doesn't impede hidden agendas. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 4793
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 7:47 am: |
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quote:US mgmt systems are riddled (both senses apt in this context) w/ little loyalty-to-unreality tests that in many cases are more significant steps to promotion than competence
Thanks for highlighting this. Like you say, it's probably a dynamic of many organizations of all kinds. And those who understand the unwritten rules of the local or corporate game will advance further and faster.
There are probably (hopefully!) organizations where there is a different internal dynamic that supports openness. This type of organization is least likely to require someone to act as a whistleblower.
We need to become more savvy about what the local rules and "culture" are in a specific local, county or state election office (or in a community). Without this understanding it will be different to figure out what kind of "dance" is going on and what the best steps on our part are likely to be. |
Joel Morine
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Erased
Post Number: 144
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 9:46 am: |
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Very true but by nature very difficult.
Folk not in situation I described will be offended by expectation that their organization works that way; as will many folk who are in that situation but able to convince themselves they aren't. Won't large # of orgs have both situations in different locales w/in same organization? Nor are contrary agendas always corrupt, how many involve protecting personal belief systems or prejudice of some supervisor w/ localized power over others w/in a system? The more unreal the belief, the more aggressive the defense of any who don't support and assist it? How many family abuse/neglect systems are training grounds for this dynamic?
Any such unreality works against expectations or invitations to try to expose such a system to outsiders...'whistleblowing', even discreet internal criticism, are not steps successful experienced members of a system take lightly. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 4794
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 10:15 am: |
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quote:Any such unreality works against expectations or invitations to try to expose such a system to outsiders...'whistleblowing', even discreet internal criticism, are not steps successful experienced members of a system take lightly.
How true.
So what do you suggest? |
Joel Morine
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Erased
Post Number: 145
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 11:14 am: |
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What I'm suggesting is that it is very hard to overcome the cumulative demotivations & object lessons that evolve over time w/in such systems.
My experience watching what happens w/in such systems doesn't invite expectations that new rules or procedures will easily overcome the negative expectations of experiences from w/in such systems. That's in addition to my original pt Congess/Prez writing legislation 'encouraging' 'protecting' 'rewarding' whistleblowers had opposite effect in last effort I was aware of (tho' this may have been changed again since) ... & I'd expect more of same from same authors.
Some kind of tidal change of expectations -- among voters & w/in culture of each organization -- is needed ... beyond just new protective rules & regulations seems to me to be an essential prerequisite. |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 4797
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 11:16 am: |
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quote:Some kind of tidal change of expectations -- among voters & w/in culture of each organization -- is needed ... beyond just new protective rules & regulations seems to me to be an essential prerequisite.
So what will get us there?
Are you saying it'll probably have to be a fraud of cataclysmic proportions that comes to light and shakes everyone up enough to create change? (Like Watergate?) |
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